[bikeqld] Cycling across crossings enforcement

Sun Apr 19 22:51:43 CDT 2009

Nice Pete ...

And from one Adelaide immigrant to another ... albeit we arrived in 
January 1839 ... so perhaps the "prickliness" remains ...!

Points taken ... but don't forget that aside from lurkers (and 
others?), this is a cycling/cyclists discussion list ... so surely 
points well made should at least be considered.

The first of mine clearly made the point that there was nothing wrong 
with what the cyclist did ... other than break some laws which if 
they were related to causing others harm of some kind, would be 
appropriate but if in place purely to "protect" ie constrain 
cyclists, well change them ... or as I suggested elsewhere, provide 
the means to get on and off the road ... and then cycle "on the road" 
where cyclists really are meant to be ... as distinct from apparently 
wanting special treatment. In fact that intersection like many others 
could revert to flashing orange/amber meaning give way (to the right 
unless otherwise signed)?

The Mt Samson Road point is equally the case ... didn't really bother 
me as a cyclist but driving a car at the speed limit ... my point is 
that other drivers may not be as "aware" ... and perhaps (?) cyclists 
should keep left esp on 100km/h roads uphill?

BTW there is a CYCLISTS AHEAD NEXT 6kms sign as you leave Samfiord 
heading south which I don't recall having seen before and I don't 
recall seeing one when heading north out of Ferny Grove.

As MR has refused to put these in many locations when requested, is 
it new or just not noticed ...?

That and the point about Witton Road are surely points worth raising 
on this list if only to encourage useful comment ... including yours Pete ..!

Elsewhere I would put them a bit differently .. in short as follows ...

redesign ALL ped AND bikeway/bikepath crossings so NO cyclist is EVER 
lead onto a pedestrian crossing ... its that simple ... starting with 
Sylvan Road at Coro Drive (where MR Refused to change the design and 
BCC went along as usual as did BQ I assume),

Mt Samsonvale Road (and ALL similar network connector roads) needs 2m 
shoulders along its entire length and the "yellow BIKEs" on the edge 
line between the through lane and the shoulder ... or not quite as 
good, BIKE symbols on the shoulder as on David Low Highway in the 
section formerly in Noosa but MR would not do it ... so Noosa took it over ...

Dutch advance sensor controlled traffic lights at Witton Road and at 
ALL similar "major" bikepath road crossings ... worth about $250,000 
... compared with how much for the Toowong overpass ...!!!

Throw in slower speed limits ... and stopping the other traffic is 
essential to making cycling relatively much faster AND safer at the 
lowest real cost ...!

MY....................

At 12:46 PM 20/04/2009, Peter Whittle wrote:

>I can't help myself ... I tried ... I know Michael never meant it this way
>... but I hate anecdotes about misdemeanours by cyclists.
>
>By and large, cyclists are not special people - they are just people - a
>subgroup of the population, if you insist. From the same convict stock as
>the rest of Brisbane (except us law-abiding Adelaide immigrants ;). Why do
>people expect cyclists to be perfect? Some people choose to ride bikes,
>which tends to indicate certain attitudes (but may not). So why does this
>mean they also have a holier approach to road laws than everyone else? I can
>watch any road and point out numerous breaches of the law by motorists
>without any difficulty ... mobile phones, illegal u-turns, rolling over
>lines, running red lights, speeding, lane-swapping, tailgating. Then there
>are the "moral offences", like driving tanks when a small car would do, or
>driving when walking would serve well (or riding a bike). But what do these
>anecdotes prove about "All motorists"? Nothing. So what value is the
>bad-cyclist anecdote? Nothing.
>
>A campaign to improve the road behaviour of cyclists only belongs in a
>general road behaviour campaign, and this should be risk-prioritised.
>Anecdotes about cyclists have got a lot more to do with bigotry than concern
>for safety or the law.
>
>Every anecdote about a bad cyclist should be met with a rebuttal along these
>lines, IMO.
>
>Pete
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: bikeqld-bounces at bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces at bikeqld.org.au]
>On Behalf Of Michael Yeates
>Sent: Monday, 20 April 2009 11:10 AM
>To: Christopher Biggs
>Cc: BikeQld list
>Subject: Re: [bikeqld] Cycling across crossings enforcement
>
>Hi ...
>
>Interesting you should mention the cyclists cycling across against
>the red because yesterday morning that is exactly what happened
>except he cycled across all four of the four crossing legs ...
>carefully in my view but each time breaching the law ... in total at
>least 6 separate times ...!
>
>Arguably not one of those involved danger to him or danger or
>nuisance to anyone else ... which raises the discetionary issue to some
>extent.
>
>I am waiting for a reply to my email sent to Bruce Flegg on Saturday
>morning ... should be interesting ... and hopefully others sent one also.
>
>My other "complaint about cyclists" occurred on Mt Samson Road as I
>was driving north in one of the 100km/h sections, I was approaching a
>right turn T-intersection where because it is on a bend it has double
>lines in place. It also has a slip lane ... and guess where the two
>cyclists cycling two abreast were cycling?
>
>In the through lane ... on an uphill section ...!
>
>This is pure stupidity if not arrogance/ignorance ... as the approach
>speed was probably around 70-80km/h ... so effectively I was
>approaching these two at about 80km/h ... with relatively poor
>visibility ... when they could and in my view should, have been using
>the slip lane ie keeping left to allow fast vehicles to pass them ...
>as it was I slowed down to "squeeze" past ...
>
>Although I would never do it for fear of the cyclists suddenly
>hearing the vehicle and moving left, I probably could easily have
>passed them to their left at 100km/h in the slip lane ... and if
>questioned, quite legitimately argued that if they were in that
>location, I assumed they might have been going to signal to turn right ...!
>
>Its worth noting that there have been some fatalities in situations
>similar to this in the ACT albeit at least in one case, where the
>cyclist was allegedly waiting to turn right and a car going straight
>ahead 'didn't see" the cyclist.
>
>As for the Witton Road crossing, there really should be GIVE WAY
>signs facing the approaching cyclists as in principle, the bike path
>is not a road (it has some other definition ... something like "road
>related" perhaps?) and any vehicle entering a road gives way to
>traffic on that road (notice Australia Post reporting posties being
>threatened by cars driving out of private property ... across our
>"shared footpaths"?) ...
>
>Witton Road is a place where a decent refuge would also be handy ...
>until we get Dutch influenced traffic lights that automatically
>advance sense and favour cyclists ...!
>
>MY.........................
>
> >  At 09:54 AM 20/04/2009, Christopher Biggs wrote:
> >
> >
> >On 18 Apr 2009, at 8:09 AM, Michael Yeates wrote:
> >>
> >>So I would not be surprised at all if a local constituent sitting in
> >>his car waiting for the lights watched cyclists flouting the law and
> >>complained to Dr Flegg about it ... and it would not surprise me if
> >>Dr Flegg then asked the police to take some action.
> >>
> >>But while that is all quite reasonable, it is also all
> >>conjecture ... it could equally be someone who was walking across
> >>the crossing and was startled by one or more cyclists overtaking in
> >>an irresponsible manner ... and reported it to police.
> >
> >If I had to speculate as to why someone would complain, I would finger
> >people turning left at either of the two slip-lane/zebra crossing
> >combos.
> >
> >Its easy enough to spot a ped at the zebra crossing and stop for them,
> >but when cyclists speed up to the zebra crossing and shoot across with
> >the expectation of priority, it can give drivers a nasty fright.
> >I've done it, when racing the red.
> >
> >Don't get me started on cyclists who 'steal base' against the red on
> >moggill and camp in the median pen...those ppl are a motorist-
> >relations deathsquad.
> >
> >Even if we badger MR into fitting cycle-across lights, I suspect the
> >zebra crossings would remain.   I very much doubt MR would plump for
> >signalising those two slip-lanes, without blowing it up in to a big
> >problem requiring impact study etc.
> >
> >The whole bloody thing should have been an overpass from the
> >beginning.   The money poured down the toilet at toowong (to be dug up
> >for the tunnel shortly) would have been better spent there.
> >
> >And another thing, what about the next (outbound) crossing at witton
> >rd?   Can anyone tell me what the law dictates when crossing there?
> >
> >--chris
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >bikeqld mailing list
> >bikeqld at bikeqld.org.au
> >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/
> >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld
> >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland.
> >
> >
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.0/2068 - Release Date:
> >04/19/09 20:04:00
>
>_______________________________________________
>bikeqld mailing list
>bikeqld at bikeqld.org.au
>http://www.bikeqld.org.au/
>http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld
>This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland.
>
>_______________________________________________
>bikeqld mailing list
>bikeqld at bikeqld.org.au
>http://www.bikeqld.org.au/
>http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld
>This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland.
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.0/2068 - Release Date: 
>04/19/09 20:04:00