From yani at imagonullius.com Mon Dec 1 00:54:44 2008 From: yani at imagonullius.com (Yani) Date: Mon Dec 1 01:19:02 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] FW: Geebung junk zone Message-ID: Seriously guys I know many of you stick to the roads but I know what I see with my eyes and at least ? those I see on bikes are on the footpath. It really is time we started to see a reversing of this trend to stuff up the footpath. And way over time that council started to inform the public that all pathways are shared pathways unless otherwise stated. Yani _____ From: Yani [mailto:yani@imagonullius.com] Sent: December 1, 2008 4:27 PM To: 'marchant.ward@ecn.net.au'; 'central.ward@ecn.net.au'; lordmayor@brisbane.qld.gov.au Subject: Geebung junk zone Fiona, The rules of what is allowed on the footpath are pretty clear. 2 footway signs (And thanks so much to the Liberals for allowing them, they are a nuisance at best and never place according to the specification/regulation. Thinking councils just ban them as uncontrollable. But far be it for the Liberals to think before sucking up to the mate?s businesses.) Geebung shops are out of control! Noddy cars are not within the regulations, nor lolly machines, nor second hand junk. But right out there is the second hand shop with the blower doll in the very middle of the pathway; with an extension cord running out from the shop. It?s an illegal sign as it moves, it?s in the wrong place and it?s outside the size specifications. There are many people who use that path area, some on bikes like myself and at least 2 guys who are blind as bats with white canes. One is a solicitor and we have had a good chat about his difficulties. Of course council set such a fine example for everyone to follow with poorly placed adshells, little green boxes and the rest of the junk. There are some landscaping and artist obstructions at Geebung but at least those items have a positive impact on the visual environment. You have a cycling policy that says car parks are bike zones and footpaths are a free for all to litter with any manner of junk. And anytime there is an issue that a cyclist addresses, as I did with this offender today whom I warn politely to remove the illegal junk, the response is always the same ?but you are not supposed to be cycling on the footpath?. Not true and a direct result of council failing to make any attempt to inform the public of the rights of cyclists; goes hand in hand with the failure to inform shopkeepers of their obligations to the public space. All of which contributes to parents at Geebung school not allowing kids to cycle to school. As I grew up in this street I can tell you for a fact that in the 60s children streamed out of the laneway on cycles. Today kid?s on cycles from Geebung school are a rare breed. If children don?t cycle to school they are very unlikely to become the adult cyclists of tomorrow who are key to the community?s reduction in the costly needs place on infrastructure by sole occupant motor vehicles. I appreciate the some of the shopkeepers down there have space issues like the hardware store. But the rest are just ignorant and what is presented on the path, junk, simply an eyesore. Trading on the footpath is definitely on the banned list. And the worst offenders are junk shop operators. We just don?t need that in our city. When is council going to wake up and realise that our biggest existing cycle network isn?t the one that costs $10M but the pre-existing one, the footpath, and show some very basic responsibility to not go out of its way to bugger it up. It is really pathetic that council let this path area be degraded further year after year. Unless there is a contractor involved and a profit to be made you lot don?t give a rats. Huge expenditures on cycle networks while our existing and most useful pathways are give up to advertising, green boxes, wheelie bin, poorly placed signage (the ?what suburb is this? signs with 2 poles on each side of the path being a classic) and junk. Get someone from local law down to Geebung shops and read the riot act to the lot of them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081201/1594ab03/attachment.htm From michael at yeatesit.biz Mon Dec 1 04:21:45 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Mon Dec 1 04:22:22 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Fwd: [LotsLessCars] Contact in Marseille Message-ID: <20081201102144.QCJX1935.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Geebung or Curitiba ... It seems describing "footpaths" as cycling facilities isn't a very clearly defined issue ... and that mayoral declarations are prone to being "distorted" ... see below. All the more reason to STOP using "bike" words such as "bikeways" and "bike paths" for facilities that are not BIKES ONLY ... and accurately describe what we generally have as "shared footpaths". It just happens that almost ALL of Queensland's footpaths are "shared" including most of the Lord Mayors projects supposedly coming from cycling funds and as in the example of Curitoba, seem to be primarily considered as a means to try to discourage cyclists from using the roads ...! Will the next step in promoting cycling in Queensland be to mandate cyclists use an adjacent "path" ? MY..................... Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:27:47 -0200 >Subject: [LotsLessCars] Contact in Marseille > >Hi all, > >Last week, our mayor was invited to participate in a meeting in >Marseille about sustainable development with ministers of the European Union. >http://www.curitiba.pr.gov.br/Noticia.aspx?n=14863 >Does anyone know one of these guys or have some connection with this meeting? > >A few declarations on our mayor speech are distorted. For example, >he claims that Curitiba is increasing his cycle infrastructure, >however what is being done boils down to paving more sidewalks and >declaring that this space is to be shared with pedestrians and cyclists. > >Luis Patricio >Curitiba PR, Brazil >__._,_.___ > >"LotsLessCars in Cities" at http://lotslesscars.org >Organize a Car/Free Day: The nose of the camel. >World Car/Free Days at http://worldcarfreeday.com >To leave list: LotsLessCars-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >To post messages: LotsLessCars@yahoogroups.com >Also check out New Mobility Agenda at >http://newmobility.org >Need some help? Send an email to Help@newmobility.org >Or call via Skype to "newmobility' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081201/619be0f1/attachment.htm From akayani at aapt.net.au Mon Dec 1 04:40:04 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Mon Dec 1 04:40:34 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Fwd: [LotsLessCars] Contact in Marseille In-Reply-To: <20081201102144.QCJX1935.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> References: <20081201102144.QCJX1935.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Message-ID: I'd agree there. They are all shared paths called bike paths to make cyclists 'feel better' and likely attached to how money is distributed. They need to stop buggering them up. Council do only one thing well, spend money with contractors. That anything actually works has FA to do with council. It's just good luck. Yani -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081201/564baa96/attachment-0001.htm From adsliif2 at tpg.com.au Mon Dec 1 23:11:26 2008 From: adsliif2 at tpg.com.au (John Nightingale) Date: Mon Dec 1 23:11:47 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] FW: Travelsafe Inquiry into Smart Growth and Transit Oriented Development to reduce car dependency in SEQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Forwarded Message From: Travel Safe Committee Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:26:24 +1000 Conversation: Travelsafe Inquiry into Smart Growth and Transit Oriented Development to reduce car dependency in SEQ Subject: Travelsafe Inquiry into Smart Growth and Transit Oriented Development to reduce car dependency in SEQ Dear subscribers The Travelsafe Committee of the 52nd Parliament is inquiring into Smart Growth and Transit Oriented Development to reduce car dependency in South East Queensland. In this inquiry the committee will investigate and report on: * Car dependency in South East Queensland; * The influence of town planning and urban design on travel needs and choices; * * The benefits of Smart Growth and Transit Oriented Development to reduce car dependency, encourage travel by other transport modes and improve sustainability in South East Queensland; and * * Measures governments should implement to overcome barriers to these forms of development in South East Queensland. A copy of the media release from the Chair is available at http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/committees/documents/TSAFE/media/08112 1%20Media%20release%20report%20announcement.pdf The committee invites you to make a submission to this inquiry. A copy of the guidelines for making submissions to committees of the Queensland Parliament are available at http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/tsafe . The closing date for submissions is 5pm on Friday 16 January 2009. If you require further time to lodge your submission, please contact the Research Director, Mr Rob Hansen on (07) 3406 7908. Based on the submissions we receive, the committee may release an issues paper in February for further comment. The final report is intended to be tabled in Parliament before the end of June 2009. The committee is interested in receiving the viewpoints of all interested persons and organisations to inform its deliberations. If you are aware of any person or organisation which may similarly wish to make a submission to this inquiry, it would be appreciated if you could forward this information or contact the committee secretariat. If you require further information about the work of the committee or the inquiry, please contact the committee secretariat by telephone (07) 3406 7908 or email tsafe@parliament.qld.gov.au . Regards Erin Pasley Acting Senior Research Officer Travelsafe Committee ______________________________________ QUEENSLAND PARLIAMENTARY SERVICE Parliament House Cnr George and Alice Streets Brisbane Qld 4000 Ph: 07 3406 7931 Fax: 07 3406 7070 mailto: Erin.Pasley@parliament.qld.gov.au web: http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/tsafe ** If you would like to be removed from this mailing list please reply to this email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. ** NOTICE - This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and only for the use of the addressee. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are strictly prohibited from using, forwarding, printing, copying or dealing in anyway whatsoever with it, and are requested to reply immediately by e-mail to the sender or by telephone to the Parliamentary Service on +61 7 3406 7111. Any views expressed in this e-mail are the author's, except where the e-mail makes it clear otherwise. The unauthorised publication of an e-mail and any attachments generated for the official functions of the Parliamentary Service, the Legislative Assembly, its Committees or Members may constitute a contempt of the Queensland Parliament. If the information contained in this e-mail and any attachments becomes the subject of any request under freedom of information legislation, the author or the Parliamentary Service should be notified. It is the addressee's responsibility to scan this message for viruses. The Parliamentary Service does not warrant that the information is free from any virus, defect or error. ------ End of Forwarded Message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081202/eb6a1263/attachment.htm From r.hockey at sph.uq.edu.au Tue Dec 2 00:46:55 2008 From: r.hockey at sph.uq.edu.au (Richard Hockey) Date: Tue Dec 2 00:47:04 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] folding bikes Message-ID: Hi We're thinking of buying a couple of folding bikes and wondering if there is anything we should look out for. We saw some full size folding bikes at the caravan and camping show (http://www.onyerbike.com.au/ ) They appeared to be fairly well made, anybody had any experience with this bike. Thanks Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081202/f219bfd2/attachment.htm From list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net Tue Dec 2 16:55:03 2008 From: list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net (Ian Lister) Date: Tue Dec 2 16:55:59 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths Message-ID: See below for an article from the ABC this morning, relevant to some of the recent shared vs separated path discussion. Ian >From : =====8<----- Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths The Pedestrian Council of Australia is calling on local councils to stop building shared bicycle paths until a full risk assessment is carried out. The council says it has legal advice which says councils would be liable if pedestrians are injured by cyclists on shared paths. But council chairman Harold Scruby says there is no recourse for pedestrians if they are hit because there is no insurance cover or enforced speed limits. He says children and the elderly are most at risk. "If people are hit in a shared cycle path, first of all there's no insurance and they'll be obliged to sue the council and the RTA," he said. "But there are no speed limits, there's no risk analysis there's no means of enforcement and in the evidence provided, it's said that 20 kilometres per hour in a shared bicycle path is far too fast." He says it is also almost impossible to identify a cyclist who has hit someone. "If the elderly or children or even any pedestrian is hit by a person on a cycle and they cycle off, you've really got no other recourse," he said. "You could be in hospital for months and have no insurance cover. If you're hit on the road by a car you've got immediate cover. And on the road, there are speed limits. There are no speed limits for shared bicycle paths." From michael at yeatesit.biz Tue Dec 2 19:37:24 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Tue Dec 2 19:37:39 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081203013722.YSHJ1935.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Thanks Ian ... The following article seems to be referring to or in response to plans or proposals being floated by Sydney City Council to allow cyclists to cycle on footpaths in parts of the Sydney CBD ... bearing in mind that cycling is banned on all footpaths in NSW (except where specifically signed eg as a shared path). The liability problem for the state and/or local road authorities is exacerbated where the facilities don't comply or are at the extreme minimum or close to it ... esp where large volumes might be expected, and the more so if large volumes of both users are expected at the same time ... like peak hour in the CBD ...! And there are other options eg a 40km/h speed limit as in North Sydney CBD, or "Sharing the Road" flagged by the Council eg the "yellow BIKEs" such as we have in Adelaide Street or if really no other option, then bike lanes but choosing not to do these and THEN putting in place a tight shared path in the CBD is asking for complaints ... Of course Sydney CBD has for years had the rather "obvious" problem of cycle-couriers (and others) using footpaths to travel opposed to the direction of ONE WAY streets (another solution being to get rid of the ONE WAY streets) ... But the fact remains that cyclists are primarily responsible for avoiding collisions on shared paths and that can be made easier or more difficult by the road authorities providing facilities that fit for purpose. I had the opportunity to watch just such a long-ago negotiated shared path situation yesterday mid-morning on the Clem Jones Promenade at South Bank when there was quite a variety of cyclists, mostly not in groups ... and lots of tourists ... and adults with quite young children ... moving to and from the CityCat terminals and along the Promenade. In some 20 minutes, all except one of the cyclists seemed to be travelling at appropriate speeds near the pedestrians and taking avoiding action where necessary to filter through the groups of peds ... with one group of three fairly sporty and fit looking cyclists-in-lycra perhaps exemplary ... slowing quite a long way in advance to very slow (maybe 10km/h) and one of them saying "watch for that kid ahead" not to threaten the parent/minder or the kid (as neither showed any sign of having heard) ... and passing slowly several metres from the child ... only really possible and encouraged when there IS sufficient width AND plenty of space to share and for cyclists to manoeuvre their way through the peds and oncoming cyclists. According to the SMH report, Council proposes to widen the footpath "to 2.4m and allow bikes and walkers to use it" .... 2.4m isn't even wide enough for a BIKES ONLY path ... of course the report could be inaccurate ...! MY................................... At 08:55 AM 3/12/2008, Ian Lister wrote: >See below for an article from the ABC this morning, relevant to some >of the recent shared vs separated path discussion. > >Ian > > From : > >=====8<----- >Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths > >The Pedestrian Council of Australia is calling on local councils to >stop building shared bicycle paths until a full risk assessment is carried out. > >The council says it has legal advice which says councils would be >liable if pedestrians are injured by cyclists on shared paths. > >But council chairman Harold Scruby says there is no recourse for >pedestrians if they are hit because there is no insurance cover or >enforced speed limits. > >He says children and the elderly are most at risk. > >"If people are hit in a shared cycle path, first of all there's no >insurance and they'll be obliged to sue the council and the RTA," he said. > >"But there are no speed limits, there's no risk analysis there's no >means of enforcement and in the evidence provided, it's said that 20 >kilometres per hour in a shared bicycle path is far too fast." > >He says it is also almost impossible to identify a cyclist who has >hit someone. > >"If the elderly or children or even any pedestrian is hit by a >person on a cycle and they cycle off, you've really got no other >recourse," he said. > >"You could be in hospital for months and have no insurance cover. > >If you're hit on the road by a car you've got immediate cover. And >on the road, there are speed limits. There are no speed limits for >shared bicycle paths." > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. From adsliif2 at tpg.com.au Tue Dec 2 20:30:18 2008 From: adsliif2 at tpg.com.au (John Nightingale) Date: Tue Dec 2 20:30:32 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] FW: Daily Telegraph story - opportunity to comment online positively for cycleways In-Reply-To: <8DD6903AFE5A2C4B823A997A331D378EC20C3F@server1> Message-ID: ------ Forwarded Message From: Alex Unwin Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:12:33 +1100 To: Alex Unwin Conversation: Daily Telegraph story - opportunity to comment online positively for cycleways Subject: FW: Daily Telegraph story - opportunity to comment online positively for cycleways Hi all ? please take a moment to action and forward to your networks! Today?s Daily Telegraph includes a story on page 16 with the headline ?Bike Push Backlash? The story is online at http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,,24742799-5001021,00.html with the option to submit comment online. This approach is fairly common for the Daily Telegraph seeking to whip up a bit of controversy which has the potential to slow down the great progress being made on Cycleway infrastructure by the City of Sydney council. Follow the above link and pop in some positive feedback around how great the plans are to encourage new riders to get out and ride in safety, improve their own health, the health of the planet and reduce congestion by taking cars off the road. Thanks heaps Alex S Unwin Chief Executive Officer Bicycle NSW More people cycling more often because Life's better on a bike! T: 02 9218 5410 M: 0425 221 060 F: 02 9281 6099 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081203/63cef2ca/attachment.htm From akayani at aapt.net.au Tue Dec 2 23:01:08 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Tue Dec 2 23:01:23 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <286F5FC1DCBA41148667CE5DA777B546@maud> There is danger in living. How nanny minded do we want society to be? If you go to the beach, are eaten by a shark, is that the fault of the lifeguard. What's NOT said is there is NO public education on good behaviour. Outside of here, most cyclists don't know their rights and most peds think they own the path and therefore make no effort to make space. At the end of the day this proposes banning cyclist from footpaths, many of which are barely used at all by anyone. And worse banning cyclists from shared paths that were created to be bikeways. The Pedestrian Council of Australia is a lobby group who should be working with the cycling community to promote outdoor exercise. The cycling groups need to make very clear that they support shared paths but require an investment is advertising/education to lift behaviour standards. If we take a view that we don't support shared paths then we are playing into the hands of those who want tight control on all behaviours. How exactly do you make such demands work in practise? The one time I had a near miss it was with a 5yo on the tricycle who suddenly swerved on the path. Is she a cyclist, a pedestrian or just a danger to the community? Safety Nazis. Yani From akayani at aapt.net.au Wed Dec 3 00:52:06 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Wed Dec 3 00:52:25 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] FW: Geebung junk zone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9397E331AD2D4825AF24C1B947F82ABE@maud> Definitely in the category of GOMOB; Grumpy Old Men On Bikes. I'll wear that hat. Yani Follow up of. From: Yani [mailto:yani@imagonullius.com] Sent: December 1, 2008 4:27 PM To: 'marchant.ward@ecn.net.au'; 'central.ward@ecn.net.au'; lordmayor@brisbane.qld.gov.au; bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: Geebung junk zone Fiona, There you go I've managed to get action on. But right out there is the second hand shop with the blower doll in the very middle of the pathway; with an extension cord running out from the shop. It's an illegal sign as it moves, it's in the wrong place and it's outside the size specifications. What year exactly are you guys going to open the eyes and deal with stopping footpath trading or changing the local laws to allow it? I'm sure there are a lot of businesses that are professional that would love 'junk yard' trading rights to the footpath. I see no reason why this should be restricted to Geebung's bankrupt alley of charity shops. Rest assured that the cycling news network watches all issues pertaining to our interests and rate both the council and Lord Mayor according to reality on the ground and not press releases. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081203/de588aaa/attachment-0001.htm From akayani at aapt.net.au Wed Dec 3 01:28:15 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Wed Dec 3 01:28:46 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... In-Reply-To: <9397E331AD2D4825AF24C1B947F82ABE@maud> References: <9397E331AD2D4825AF24C1B947F82ABE@maud> Message-ID: <1331C082B4DE45BCA6D0C3B34FCB6FC3@maud> http://www.getup.org.au First I think you guys should be signing up on a no to Internet censorship. But regardless we could pick out an issue that is real for us and get up a petition on this site. They seem to have a professional handle on this stuff. Nice site and worth a look no matter what. Are we on a good thing with nothing to say or are there general issues to be addressed? Yani To get an issue up theses are the rules Can I suggest an issue to campaign on? Yes, we welcome the ideas and suggestions of GetUp members to help shape our actions on important national issues. We receive a large volume of emails, so to help us consider your suggestion, please write to campaigns@getup.org.au and tell us briefly: - In one or two lines, what is your campaign about (what problem are you seeking to address)? - What is the desired political outcome (what, specifically, are you trying to achieve)? - Who has the power to make change happen, or at least influence the political result (should we be targeting dissenting MPs, the media, the Prime Minister)? - What's the campaign's message (i.e. Fund our ABC, or No child belongs in detention)? - What should the campaign ask GetUp members to do (sign a petition, call talkback radio, attend a rally, email their Federal MP)? - Is there a target audience for this campaign (university students, mums and dads, Australians affected by drought)? - What is the timing of this issue (why should we run a campaign about this now, or later)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081203/dfc1c921/attachment.htm From pjl.whittle at optusnet.com.au Wed Dec 3 07:08:45 2008 From: pjl.whittle at optusnet.com.au (PJL Whittle) Date: Wed Dec 3 07:09:00 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... In-Reply-To: <1331C082B4DE45BCA6D0C3B34FCB6FC3@maud> References: <9397E331AD2D4825AF24C1B947F82ABE@maud> <1331C082B4DE45BCA6D0C3B34FCB6FC3@maud> Message-ID: <4173BCA339AB4A5892ACCE4231B15FC5@qut.edu.au> Tax cars on their Width x Length? Smaller cars mean more room for bikes in the lane. Make people pay for their inconsiderate, greedy choices. Pete _____ From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Yani Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 5:28 PM To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... http://www.getup.org.au First I think you guys should be signing up on a no to Internet censorship. But regardless we could pick out an issue that is real for us and get up a petition on this site. They seem to have a professional handle on this stuff. Nice site and worth a look no matter what. Are we on a good thing with nothing to say or are there general issues to be addressed? Yani To get an issue up theses are the rules Can I suggest an issue to campaign on? Yes, we welcome the ideas and suggestions of GetUp members to help shape our actions on important national issues. We receive a large volume of emails, so to help us consider your suggestion, please write to campaigns@getup.org.au and tell us briefly: - In one or two lines, what is your campaign about (what problem are you seeking to address)? - What is the desired political outcome (what, specifically, are you trying to achieve)? - Who has the power to make change happen, or at least influence the political result (should we be targeting dissenting MPs, the media, the Prime Minister)? - What's the campaign's message (i.e. Fund our ABC, or No child belongs in detention)? - What should the campaign ask GetUp members to do (sign a petition, call talkback radio, attend a rally, email their Federal MP)? - Is there a target audience for this campaign (university students, mums and dads, Australians affected by drought)? - What is the timing of this issue (why should we run a campaign about this now, or later)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081203/ec793241/attachment.htm From list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net Wed Dec 3 07:43:03 2008 From: list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net (Ian Lister) Date: Wed Dec 3 07:43:29 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... In-Reply-To: <4173BCA339AB4A5892ACCE4231B15FC5@qut.edu.au> References: <9397E331AD2D4825AF24C1B947F82ABE@maud> <1331C082B4DE45BCA6D0C3B34FCB6FC3@maud> <4173BCA339AB4A5892ACCE4231B15FC5@qut.edu.au> Message-ID: <20081203234154.A1933@singha.lister.id.au> Just scrapping the damned FBT exemption on motor vehicles would have to be a good candidate. Ian On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, PJL Whittle wrote: > Tax cars on their Width x Length? Smaller cars mean more room for bikes in > the lane. Make people pay for their inconsiderate, greedy choices. > > Pete > > > _____ > > From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] > On Behalf Of Yani > Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 5:28 PM > To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... > > > > http://www.getup.org.au > > > > First I think you guys should be signing up on a no to Internet censorship. > > > > > > But regardless we could pick out an issue that is real for us and get up a > petition on this site. > > > > They seem to have a professional handle on this stuff. Nice site and worth a > look no matter what. > > > > Are we on a good thing with nothing to say or are there general issues to be > addressed? > > > > Yani > > > > > > > > To get an issue up theses are the rules > > > Can I suggest an issue to campaign on? > > > Yes, we welcome the ideas and suggestions of GetUp members to help shape our > actions on important national issues. We receive a large volume of emails, > so to help us consider your suggestion, please write to > campaigns@getup.org.au and tell us briefly: > > - In one or two lines, what is your campaign about (what problem are you > seeking to address)? > > - What is the desired political outcome (what, specifically, are you trying > to achieve)? > > - Who has the power to make change happen, or at least influence the > political result (should we be targeting dissenting MPs, the media, the > Prime Minister)? > > - What's the campaign's message (i.e. Fund our ABC, or No child belongs in > detention)? > > - What should the campaign ask GetUp members to do (sign a petition, call > talkback radio, attend a rally, email their Federal MP)? > > - Is there a target audience for this campaign (university students, mums > and dads, Australians affected by drought)? > > - What is the timing of this issue (why should we run a campaign about this > now, or later)? > > From flindersia at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 14:10:42 2008 From: flindersia at yahoo.com (Flindersia) Date: Wed Dec 3 14:11:17 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths References: <286F5FC1DCBA41148667CE5DA777B546@maud> Message-ID: <808489.83530.qm@web62302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I had cause to use the cross river ferry from the City to Kangaroo point on a rainy night last week. Now there was a mixed sharing of a path! There were about dozen people waiting for the ferry, all huddled under one of 'tunnel' areas, and to this is added other pedestrians with umbrellas and cyclists. All of this was occurring on wet path maybe 2.5 m wide. I thought the cyclists were brilliant at negotiating the chaos and the peds were generally accommodating. Cheers Ian ----- Original Message ---- From: Yani To: Ian Lister ; bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Sent: Wednesday, 3 December, 2008 3:01:08 PM Subject: RE: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths There is danger in living. How nanny minded do we want society to be? If you go to the beach, are eaten by a shark, is that the fault of the lifeguard. What's NOT said is there is NO public education on good behaviour. Outside of here, most cyclists don't know their rights and most peds think they own the path and therefore make no effort to make space. At the end of the day this proposes banning cyclist from footpaths, many of which are barely used at all by anyone. And worse banning cyclists from shared paths that were created to be bikeways. The Pedestrian Council of Australia is a lobby group who should be working with the cycling community to promote outdoor exercise. The cycling groups need to make very clear that they support shared paths but require an investment is advertising/education to lift behaviour standards. If we take a view that we don't support shared paths then we are playing into the hands of those who want tight control on all behaviours. How exactly do you make such demands work in practise? The one time I had a near miss it was with a 5yo on the tricycle who suddenly swerved on the path. Is she a cyclist, a pedestrian or just a danger to the community? Safety Nazis. Yani _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline From michael at yeatesit.biz Wed Dec 3 15:28:50 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Wed Dec 3 15:28:56 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... In-Reply-To: <20081203234154.A1933@singha.lister.id.au> References: <9397E331AD2D4825AF24C1B947F82ABE@maud> <1331C082B4DE45BCA6D0C3B34FCB6FC3@maud> <4173BCA339AB4A5892ACCE4231B15FC5@qut.edu.au> <20081203234154.A1933@singha.lister.id.au> Message-ID: <20081203212841.TXER1284.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Feds to prevent states subsidising petrol ....??? States to use that money for "better" projects or lose the equivalent in federal government grants ...? MY.............. At 11:43 PM 3/12/2008, Ian Lister wrote: >Just scrapping the damned FBT exemption on motor vehicles would have >to be a good candidate. > >Ian > >On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, PJL Whittle wrote: >>Tax cars on their Width x Length? Smaller cars mean more room for bikes in >>the lane. Make people pay for their inconsiderate, greedy choices. >> >>Pete >> >> >> _____ >> >>From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] >>On Behalf Of Yani >>Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 5:28 PM >>To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >>Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... >> >> >> >>http://www.getup.org.au >> >> >> >>First I think you guys should be signing up on a no to Internet censorship. >> >> >> >> >> >>But regardless we could pick out an issue that is real for us and get up a >>petition on this site. >> >> >> >>They seem to have a professional handle on this stuff. Nice site and worth a >>look no matter what. >> >> >> >>Are we on a good thing with nothing to say or are there general issues to be >>addressed? >> >> >> >>Yani >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>To get an issue up theses are the rules >> >> >>Can I suggest an issue to campaign on? >> >> >>Yes, we welcome the ideas and suggestions of GetUp members to help shape our >>actions on important national issues. We receive a large volume of emails, >>so to help us consider your suggestion, please write to >>campaigns@getup.org.au and tell us briefly: >> >>- In one or two lines, what is your campaign about (what problem are you >>seeking to address)? >> >>- What is the desired political outcome (what, specifically, are you trying >>to achieve)? >> >>- Who has the power to make change happen, or at least influence the >>political result (should we be targeting dissenting MPs, the media, the >>Prime Minister)? >> >>- What's the campaign's message (i.e. Fund our ABC, or No child belongs in >>detention)? >> >>- What should the campaign ask GetUp members to do (sign a petition, call >>talkback radio, attend a rally, email their Federal MP)? >> >>- Is there a target audience for this campaign (university students, mums >>and dads, Australians affected by drought)? >> >>- What is the timing of this issue (why should we run a campaign about this >>now, or later)? >> > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: >3/12/2008 5:41 PM From museduca at bigpond.net.au Thu Dec 4 12:12:45 2008 From: museduca at bigpond.net.au (Dave Mc) Date: Thu Dec 4 12:13:12 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] RE: get it up In-Reply-To: <200812041800.mB4I05CJ006786@laika.gnusto.com> References: <200812041800.mB4I05CJ006786@laika.gnusto.com> Message-ID: "get it up" - was this tongue in cheek and I missed it- or a Freudian slip? :) Message: 2 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:28:50 +1000 From: Michael Yeates Subject: RE: [bikeqld] Get it up... To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Message-ID: <20081203212841.TXER1284.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Feds to prevent states subsidising petrol ....??? States to use that money for "better" projects or lose the equivalent in federal government grants ...? MY.............. At 11:43 PM 3/12/2008, Ian Lister wrote: >Just scrapping the damned FBT exemption on motor vehicles would have >to be a good candidate. > >Ian > >On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, PJL Whittle wrote: >>Tax cars on their Width x Length? Smaller cars mean more room for bikes in >>the lane. Make people pay for their inconsiderate, greedy choices. >> >>Pete >> >> >> _____ >> >>From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] >>On Behalf Of Yani >>Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 5:28 PM >>To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >>Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... >> >> >> >>http://www.getup.org.au >> >> >> >>First I think you guys should be signing up on a no to Internet censorship. >> >> >> >> >> >>But regardless we could pick out an issue that is real for us and get up a >>petition on this site. >> >> >> >>They seem to have a professional handle on this stuff. Nice site and worth a >>look no matter what. >> >> >> >>Are we on a good thing with nothing to say or are there general issues to be >>addressed? >> >> >> >>Yani >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>To get an issue up theses are the rules >> >> >>Can I suggest an issue to campaign on? >> >> >>Yes, we welcome the ideas and suggestions of GetUp members to help shape our >>actions on important national issues. We receive a large volume of emails, >>so to help us consider your suggestion, please write to >>campaigns@getup.org.au and tell us briefly: >> >>- In one or two lines, what is your campaign about (what problem are you >>seeking to address)? >> >>- What is the desired political outcome (what, specifically, are you trying >>to achieve)? >> >>- Who has the power to make change happen, or at least influence the >>political result (should we be targeting dissenting MPs, the media, the >>Prime Minister)? >> >>- What's the campaign's message (i.e. Fund our ABC, or No child belongs in >>detention)? >> >>- What should the campaign ask GetUp members to do (sign a petition, call >>talkback radio, attend a rally, email their Federal MP)? >> >>- Is there a target audience for this campaign (university students, mums >>and dads, Australians affected by drought)? >> >>- What is the timing of this issue (why should we run a campaign about this >>now, or later)? >> > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: >3/12/2008 5:41 PM ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld End of bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 ************************************** From akayani at aapt.net.au Thu Dec 4 17:37:38 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Thu Dec 4 17:37:51 2008 Subject: FW: [bikeqld] RE: get it up Message-ID: <01F07429369048C9A6F6F64D4614D175@maud> That's the site name not my invention. LOL Be a good exercise to come up with a petition and get it up. Maybe something to request public education to improve safety. Say to; Inform cyclist and pedestrian of there rights and responsibilities on shared pathway. Increase driver awareness. Promote cycling for commuting and fitness. Some of the road safety promotion dollars could go to cycling without being offensive to anyone. Yani -----Original Message----- From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Dave Mc Sent: December 5, 2008 4:13 AM To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Cc: michael@yeatesit.biz Subject: [bikeqld] RE: get it up "get it up" - was this tongue in cheek and I missed it- or a Freudian slip? :) From museduca at bigpond.net.au Thu Dec 4 18:38:16 2008 From: museduca at bigpond.net.au (Dave Mc) Date: Thu Dec 4 18:38:39 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] FW: bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 Message-ID: <55836D1BADB04036A118E0498CCF0E13@acer6dff78d94b> Gday- I initially missed that it was the Ped Council of Oz that it was advocation scrapping shared paths- horrors. Qld as we know it is legal to use a path, and fairly regularly I see cyclists sensibly using the paths here in Hervey Bay to good advantage. I am a reasonably confident vehicular cyclist in traffic- here and brisb - but even so I quite often opt for a path to make life easier. Here in the Bay cycling is banned around the major shops- it is clearly signed- and in those spots walking the bikes is far better. Otherwise many of the paths are planned as shared paths. There is a wide fast shared/path corridor (3 m from memory) which links the old suburbs a block or so from the beach parallel to the water and which feeds into the CBD. Most of the cycling/ped arteries that feed that from the "inland" new suburbs down to the Links Corridor are either mostly quiet roads (apart from Denman Camp- which is still bearable) or shared paths. To ban cycling on paths here would cause massive disruption to say the least- hugely counterproductive. Dave Message: 1 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) From: Flindersia Subject: Re: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths To: Ian Lister , bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Message-ID: <808489.83530.qm@web62302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I had cause to use the cross river ferry from the City to Kangaroo point on a rainy night last week. Now there was a mixed sharing of a path! There were about dozen people waiting for the ferry, all huddled under one of 'tunnel' areas, and to this is added other pedestrians with umbrellas and cyclists. All of this was occurring on wet path maybe 2.5 m wide. I thought the cyclists were brilliant at negotiating the chaos and the peds were generally accommodating. Cheers Ian ----- Original Message ---- From: Yani To: Ian Lister ; bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Sent: Wednesday, 3 December, 2008 3:01:08 PM Subject: RE: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths There is danger in living. How nanny minded do we want society to be? If you go to the beach, are eaten by a shark, is that the fault of the lifeguard. What's NOT said is there is NO public education on good behaviour. Outside of here, most cyclists don't know their rights and most peds think they own the path and therefore make no effort to make space. At the end of the day this proposes banning cyclist from footpaths, many of which are barely used at all by anyone. And worse banning cyclists from shared paths that were created to be bikeways. The Pedestrian Council of Australia is a lobby group who should be working with the cycling community to promote outdoor exercise. The cycling groups need to make very clear that they support shared paths but require an investment is advertising/education to lift behaviour standards. If we take a view that we don't support shared paths then we are playing into the hands of those who want tight control on all behaviours. How exactly do you make such demands work in practise? The one time I had a near miss it was with a 5yo on the tricycle who suddenly swerved on the path. Is she a cyclist, a pedestrian or just a danger to the community? Safety Nazis. Yani _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:28:50 +1000 From: Michael Yeates Subject: RE: [bikeqld] Get it up... To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Message-ID: <20081203212841.TXER1284.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Feds to prevent states subsidising petrol ....??? States to use that money for "better" projects or lose the equivalent in federal government grants ...? MY.............. At 11:43 PM 3/12/2008, Ian Lister wrote: >Just scrapping the damned FBT exemption on motor vehicles would have >to be a good candidate. > >Ian > >On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, PJL Whittle wrote: >>Tax cars on their Width x Length? Smaller cars mean more room for bikes in >>the lane. Make people pay for their inconsiderate, greedy choices. >> >>Pete >> >> >> _____ >> >>From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] >>On Behalf Of Yani >>Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 5:28 PM >>To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >>Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... >> >> >> >>http://www.getup.org.au >> >> >> >>First I think you guys should be signing up on a no to Internet censorship. >> >> >> >> >> >>But regardless we could pick out an issue that is real for us and get up a >>petition on this site. >> >> >> >>They seem to have a professional handle on this stuff. Nice site and worth a >>look no matter what. >> >> >> >>Are we on a good thing with nothing to say or are there general issues to be >>addressed? >> >> >> >>Yani >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>To get an issue up theses are the rules >> >> >>Can I suggest an issue to campaign on? >> >> >>Yes, we welcome the ideas and suggestions of GetUp members to help shape our >>actions on important national issues. We receive a large volume of emails, >>so to help us consider your suggestion, please write to >>campaigns@getup.org.au and tell us briefly: >> >>- In one or two lines, what is your campaign about (what problem are you >>seeking to address)? >> >>- What is the desired political outcome (what, specifically, are you trying >>to achieve)? >> >>- Who has the power to make change happen, or at least influence the >>political result (should we be targeting dissenting MPs, the media, the >>Prime Minister)? >> >>- What's the campaign's message (i.e. Fund our ABC, or No child belongs in >>detention)? >> >>- What should the campaign ask GetUp members to do (sign a petition, call >>talkback radio, attend a rally, email their Federal MP)? >> >>- Is there a target audience for this campaign (university students, mums >>and dads, Australians affected by drought)? >> >>- What is the timing of this issue (why should we run a campaign about this >>now, or later)? >> > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: >3/12/2008 5:41 PM ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld End of bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 ************************************** From michael at yeatesit.biz Thu Dec 4 19:33:22 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Thu Dec 4 19:33:45 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] FW: bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <55836D1BADB04036A118E0498CCF0E13@acer6dff78d94b> References: <55836D1BADB04036A118E0498CCF0E13@acer6dff78d94b> Message-ID: <20081205013308.EQRE5136.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Hi Dave and others ... The problem here Dave is that you ARE advocating or at least supporting the banning of cycling on footpaths ... in this case "here in the Bay cycling is banned (on the footpath) around the major shops" ... where I seriously doubt there is anywhere near the pedestrian or motorised traffic as compared to the Sydney CBD where it is proposed to share the footpaths ... and from reports, using a substandard facility ... little wonder PCA is raising the liability stakes and proposing such footpaths not be shared ...! Its quite another matter for the PCA or anyone else to suggest shared footpaths be banned if they comply with current maximum recommended widths and design details ... but even then the context is still absolutely crucial. When Queensland local (road) authorities started to ban cycling on footpaths and as a result, a new Queensland government regulation was introduced, I for one argued strenuously for either bike lanes or preferably, "yellow BIKEs" ALWAYS be provided on the adjacent roadway in part because a cyclist wheeling a bike takes up a lot of lateral width/space and is arguably not wanted in already congested pedestrian spaces including footpaths. I cannot be certain if my suggested conditional approval for use of the cycling bans was ever implemented or indeed adopted eg by Brisbane City Council, but there are many examples of shopping centres where the "yellow BIKEs" have been well utilised and where it should be safe enough for cyclists to travel and to "Share the Road" rather than the footpath. Hopefully with Noosa and Caloundra Councils now amalgamated with Maroochy, the experience of use of the "yellow BIKEs" will now become common on the Sunshine Coast ... hopefully the expertise has not moved elsewhere ... unless that place then benefits from the expertise and experience ...! I suspect even BCC is not too keen on cycling on footpaths in the Brisbane, Valley and many of the suburban CBD areas ... but I must admit I have never noticed any of the necessary signage. But as mentioned previously, it seems ridiculous to not provide for cyclists on roads adjacent to crowded footpaths in such areas. Therefore is there a problem with the PCA advocating against cycling on such footpaths? Is the real issue the failure of cyclists to effectively advocate for "appropriate" conditions on the roads in such locations and elsewhere? MY............................ At 10:38 AM 5/12/2008, Dave Mc wrote: >Gday- I initially missed that it was the Ped Council of Oz that it was >advocation scrapping shared paths- horrors. Qld as we know it is legal to >use a path, and fairly regularly I see cyclists sensibly using the paths >here in Hervey Bay to good advantage. > >I am a reasonably confident vehicular cyclist in traffic- here and brisb - >but even so I quite often opt for a path to make life easier. > >Here in the Bay cycling is banned around the major shops- it is clearly >signed- and in those spots walking the bikes is far better. Otherwise many >of the paths are planned as shared paths. > >There is a wide fast shared/path corridor (3 m from memory) which links the >old suburbs a block or so from the beach parallel to the water and which >feeds into the CBD. Most of the cycling/ped arteries that feed that from the >"inland" new suburbs down to the Links Corridor are either mostly quiet >roads (apart from Denman Camp- which is still bearable) or shared paths. > >To ban cycling on paths here would cause massive disruption to say the >least- hugely counterproductive. > >Dave > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) >From: Flindersia >Subject: Re: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths >To: Ian Lister , > bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >Message-ID: <808489.83530.qm@web62302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > >I had cause to use the cross river ferry from the City to >Kangaroo point on a rainy night last week. Now there was a mixed sharing of >a >path! > >There were about dozen people waiting for the ferry, all >huddled under one of 'tunnel' areas, and to this is added other pedestrians >with umbrellas and cyclists. All of this was occurring on wet path maybe 2.5 >m >wide. I thought the cyclists were brilliant at negotiating the chaos and the >peds were generally accommodating. > > >Cheers > >Ian > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Yani >To: Ian Lister ; bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >Sent: Wednesday, 3 December, 2008 3:01:08 PM >Subject: RE: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths > >There is danger in living. How nanny minded do we want society to be? > >If you go to the beach, are eaten by a shark, is that the fault of the >lifeguard. > > >What's NOT said is there is NO public education on good behaviour. Outside >of here, most cyclists don't know their rights and most peds think they own >the path and therefore make no effort to make space. > >At the end of the day this proposes banning cyclist from footpaths, many of >which are barely used at all by anyone. And worse banning cyclists from >shared paths that were created to be bikeways. > >The Pedestrian Council of Australia is a lobby group who should be working >with the cycling community to promote outdoor exercise. > >The cycling groups need to make very clear that they support shared paths >but require an investment is advertising/education to lift behaviour >standards. If we take a view that we don't support shared paths then we are >playing into the hands of those who want tight control on all behaviours. > >How exactly do you make such demands work in practise? The one time I had a >near miss it was with a 5yo on the tricycle who suddenly swerved on the >path. Is she a cyclist, a pedestrian or just a danger to the community? > >Safety Nazis. > > >Yani > > > > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > > > Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now >http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:28:50 +1000 >From: Michael Yeates >Subject: RE: [bikeqld] Get it up... >To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >Message-ID: > ><20081203212841.TXER1284.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >Feds to prevent states subsidising petrol ....??? > >States to use that money for "better" projects or lose the equivalent >in federal government grants ...? > >MY.............. > >At 11:43 PM 3/12/2008, Ian Lister wrote: > > >Just scrapping the damned FBT exemption on motor vehicles would have > >to be a good candidate. > > > >Ian > > > >On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, PJL Whittle wrote: > >>Tax cars on their Width x Length? Smaller cars mean more room for bikes in > >>the lane. Make people pay for their inconsiderate, greedy choices. > >> > >>Pete > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >>From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au >[mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] > >>On Behalf Of Yani > >>Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 5:28 PM > >>To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > >>Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... > >> > >> > >> > >>http://www.getup.org.au > >> > >> > >> > >>First I think you guys should be signing up on a no to Internet >censorship. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>But regardless we could pick out an issue that is real for us and get up a > >>petition on this site. > >> > >> > >> > >>They seem to have a professional handle on this stuff. Nice site and worth >a > >>look no matter what. > >> > >> > >> > >>Are we on a good thing with nothing to say or are there general issues to >be > >>addressed? > >> > >> > >> > >>Yani > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To get an issue up theses are the rules > >> > >> > >>Can I suggest an issue to campaign on? > >> > >> > >>Yes, we welcome the ideas and suggestions of GetUp members to help shape >our > >>actions on important national issues. We receive a large volume of emails, > >>so to help us consider your suggestion, please write to > >>campaigns@getup.org.au and tell us briefly: > >> > >>- In one or two lines, what is your campaign about (what problem are you > >>seeking to address)? > >> > >>- What is the desired political outcome (what, specifically, are you >trying > >>to achieve)? > >> > >>- Who has the power to make change happen, or at least influence the > >>political result (should we be targeting dissenting MPs, the media, the > >>Prime Minister)? > >> > >>- What's the campaign's message (i.e. Fund our ABC, or No child belongs in > >>detention)? > >> > >>- What should the campaign ask GetUp members to do (sign a petition, call > >>talkback radio, attend a rally, email their Federal MP)? > >> > >>- Is there a target audience for this campaign (university students, mums > >>and dads, Australians affected by drought)? > >> > >>- What is the timing of this issue (why should we run a campaign about >this > >>now, or later)? > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >bikeqld mailing list > >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ > >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: > >3/12/2008 5:41 PM > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > >End of bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 >************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.14/1829 - Release Date: >4/12/2008 2:59 PM From akayani at aapt.net.au Thu Dec 4 21:08:35 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Thu Dec 4 21:08:46 2008 Subject: FW: [bikeqld] FW: bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 Message-ID: "Therefore is there a problem with the PCA advocating against cycling on such footpaths?" There sure as is. When you own a green Honda you see a lot of green Hondas. For those that open their eyes here there are far more people cycling on footpaths than on the road. CBD you cannot cycle on the footpath because there just isn't the space period. The problem in QLD is that too many obnoxious peds 'think' that you can't cycle on the path and go out of their way to be a problem. It's a very very very small effort to move to the side. We should be writing to the Ped's Ass and giving them a 'what for'. Cyclists are peds and car drivers. We should be able to see all sides of the coin. Yani Hi Dave and others ... The problem here Dave is that you ARE advocating or at least supporting the banning of cycling on footpaths ... in this case "here in the Bay cycling is banned (on the footpath) around the major shops" ... where I seriously doubt there is anywhere near the pedestrian or motorised traffic as compared to the Sydney CBD where it is proposed to share the footpaths ... and from reports, using a substandard facility ... little wonder PCA is raising the liability stakes and proposing such footpaths not be shared ...! Its quite another matter for the PCA or anyone else to suggest shared footpaths be banned if they comply with current maximum recommended widths and design details ... but even then the context is still absolutely crucial. When Queensland local (road) authorities started to ban cycling on footpaths and as a result, a new Queensland government regulation was introduced, I for one argued strenuously for either bike lanes or preferably, "yellow BIKEs" ALWAYS be provided on the adjacent roadway in part because a cyclist wheeling a bike takes up a lot of lateral width/space and is arguably not wanted in already congested pedestrian spaces including footpaths. I cannot be certain if my suggested conditional approval for use of the cycling bans was ever implemented or indeed adopted eg by Brisbane City Council, but there are many examples of shopping centres where the "yellow BIKEs" have been well utilised and where it should be safe enough for cyclists to travel and to "Share the Road" rather than the footpath. Hopefully with Noosa and Caloundra Councils now amalgamated with Maroochy, the experience of use of the "yellow BIKEs" will now become common on the Sunshine Coast ... hopefully the expertise has not moved elsewhere ... unless that place then benefits from the expertise and experience ...! I suspect even BCC is not too keen on cycling on footpaths in the Brisbane, Valley and many of the suburban CBD areas ... but I must admit I have never noticed any of the necessary signage. But as mentioned previously, it seems ridiculous to not provide for cyclists on roads adjacent to crowded footpaths in such areas. Therefore is there a problem with the PCA advocating against cycling on such footpaths? Is the real issue the failure of cyclists to effectively advocate for "appropriate" conditions on the roads in such locations and elsewhere? MY............................ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081205/43cd5219/attachment.htm From akayani at aapt.net.au Thu Dec 4 22:51:33 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Thu Dec 4 22:51:47 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] RE: cycling on footpaths In-Reply-To: <22844B728EEE402D9B6AA0836EA1B5D3@acer6dff78d94b> References: <55836D1BADB04036A118E0498CCF0E13@acer6dff78d94b> <20081205013308.EQRE5136.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> <48AB466BA07D455CB85B17C9634699E8@maud> <22844B728EEE402D9B6AA0836EA1B5D3@acer6dff78d94b> Message-ID: The real issue here is with generalizations. I use the footpath at Geebung shops because in peak hour there just isn't space on the road period unless you take car like status. And why do that when you then face traffic lights. In fact on Neman Road they have built gardens into the road space for traffic calming where you could once have cycled and avoid the path. The idea that a group of Ped's decide that a blanket ban is in their interest when so many paths are for all practical purposed unused is just way too idiotlicy self-righteous and plain selfish. Litigious in the extreme. What we need is for council to act to ensure 1. a minimum path width 2. fast repairs to broken manhole covers 3. ensure trees and branches are not in the head whack position where you can't see them with a helmet on 4. no clutter of obstructions 5. education and common sense Imagine if we get 'no bikes on the footpath'. Some copper on a bad day will use it as an excuse to make a fuss over nothing. We don't want them to have that power. We want choice! I certainly don't want to have to fight for space at night, in the rain with mad drivers. We have to fight for maximum choice and can't assume that if one right is removed another will suddenly appear out of no where. That just isn't going to happen. Yani _____ From: Dave Mc [mailto:museduca@bigpond.net.au] Sent: December 5, 2008 2:30 PM To: akayani@aapt.net.au; 'Michael Yeates' Cc: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: RE: cycling on footpaths I prob need to be a little more specific- in Hervey Bay shopping centres away from the water front Esplanade the ban often applies within the shopping precinct on the paths immediately outside the shops (which is outside Council jurisdiction I suspect anyway) - the car park areas are generous and I never have any trouble getting close to the shop I want and then mooring the bike. Down on the Esplanade particularly at Torquay and to a lesser extent Scarness and Urangan the businesses face the Esplanade with on-street parking- cyclists let loose on the narrow paths in those few hundred metres in each case create havoc (seen it happen) - but straight across the road is the shared path, and the narrow Esplanade itself while legally 50ks is usually much slower because of so much going on. Failing all else the shared path is prob the best option but I often use the Esplanade keeping an eagle eye out for car doors that mysteriously suddenly fling open in the paths of cyclists. Probably these places would be ideal for some yellow bike signs- there is pretty regular cycle traffic along the Esplanade itself as well as the shared path. So I don't have a problem with those few spots being excluded to cyclists as there plenty of much safer alternatives close by (safer for everybody). These few spots aside the local cycling network here as being planned (and slowly developed by the Council) is heavily reliant on shared paths running south north to the water to link up with east west major non-motorised arteries of the Links Corridor and Foreshore shared paths. The foreshore path as built for the Bicentenary in 1988 is pretty narrow and hopeless for todays conditions in the busier areas. However recent development in many areas has required rebuilds- and the new portions would have to be at least 3 metres wide if not wider. Very generous. Mercifully most peds here now are getting into the swing of "keep to the left" and "passing on the right". Some tourists tho are totally clueless and sprawl all over the path and nearly get themselves killed. Also Ipods/MP3 players represent a real hazard- wearers have no idea you are closing in on them. Not long ago I "belled" an older couple (from a respectable distance) and they nearly messed themselves as I shot past- made muttered comments about not getting warning and were pretty crapped off. Well I DID warn them- they need to pay more attention when out in that environment. There is plenty of signage plus markings on the two main paths (markings the result of local BUG advocacy) showing a) paths are shared and b) direction of travel and it seems that most people are taking notice of that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081205/5aa2c237/attachment-0001.htm From museduca at bigpond.net.au Thu Dec 4 23:39:04 2008 From: museduca at bigpond.net.au (Dave Mc) Date: Thu Dec 4 23:39:26 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] RE: cycling on paths In-Reply-To: <200812050451.mB54pxxF003658@laika.gnusto.com> References: <200812050451.mB54pxxF003658@laika.gnusto.com> Message-ID: The idea that a group of Ped's decide that a blanket ban is in their interest when so many paths are for all practical purposed unused is just way too idiotically self-righteous and plain selfish. Litigious in the extreme. Yup do agree totally. And as I have said a couple of times- to ban cycling on paths would cripple the cycling networks in many towns- and as you have said force cyclists out in to some pretty crappy and unsafe conditions. With the big push to ALL forms of physical exercise being advocated today it wouldn't hard to come up with a wide range of arguments against their case. Be interesting to see the legal aspects that develop. Message: 2 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:51:33 +1000 From: "Yani" Subject: [bikeqld] RE: cycling on footpaths To: "'Dave Mc'" , "'Michael Yeates'" Cc: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The real issue here is with generalizations. I use the footpath at Geebung shops because in peak hour there just isn't space on the road period unless you take car like status. And why do that when you then face traffic lights. In fact on Neman Road they have built gardens into the road space for traffic calming where you could once have cycled and avoid the path. The idea that a group of Ped's decide that a blanket ban is in their interest when so many paths are for all practical purposed unused is just way too idiotlicy self-righteous and plain selfish. Litigious in the extreme. What we need is for council to act to ensure 1. a minimum path width 2. fast repairs to broken manhole covers 3. ensure trees and branches are not in the head whack position where you can't see them with a helmet on 4. no clutter of obstructions 5. education and common sense Imagine if we get 'no bikes on the footpath'. Some copper on a bad day will use it as an excuse to make a fuss over nothing. We don't want them to have that power. We want choice! I certainly don't want to have to fight for space at night, in the rain with mad drivers. We have to fight for maximum choice and can't assume that if one right is removed another will suddenly appear out of no where. That just isn't going to happen. Yani _____ From: Dave Mc [mailto:museduca@bigpond.net.au] Sent: December 5, 2008 2:30 PM To: akayani@aapt.net.au; 'Michael Yeates' Cc: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: RE: cycling on footpaths I prob need to be a little more specific- in Hervey Bay shopping centres away from the water front Esplanade the ban often applies within the shopping precinct on the paths immediately outside the shops (which is outside Council jurisdiction I suspect anyway) - the car park areas are generous and I never have any trouble getting close to the shop I want and then mooring the bike. Down on the Esplanade particularly at Torquay and to a lesser extent Scarness and Urangan the businesses face the Esplanade with on-street parking- cyclists let loose on the narrow paths in those few hundred metres in each case create havoc (seen it happen) - but straight across the road is the shared path, and the narrow Esplanade itself while legally 50ks is usually much slower because of so much going on. Failing all else the shared path is prob the best option but I often use the Esplanade keeping an eagle eye out for car doors that mysteriously suddenly fling open in the paths of cyclists. Probably these places would be ideal for some yellow bike signs- there is pretty regular cycle traffic along the Esplanade itself as well as the shared path. So I don't have a problem with those few spots being excluded to cyclists as there plenty of much safer alternatives close by (safer for everybody). These few spots aside the local cycling network here as being planned (and slowly developed by the Council) is heavily reliant on shared paths running south north to the water to link up with east west major non-motorised arteries of the Links Corridor and Foreshore shared paths. The foreshore path as built for the Bicentenary in 1988 is pretty narrow and hopeless for todays conditions in the busier areas. However recent development in many areas has required rebuilds- and the new portions would have to be at least 3 metres wide if not wider. Very generous. Mercifully most peds here now are getting into the swing of "keep to the left" and "passing on the right". Some tourists tho are totally clueless and sprawl all over the path and nearly get themselves killed. Also Ipods/MP3 players represent a real hazard- wearers have no idea you are closing in on them. Not long ago I "belled" an older couple (from a respectable distance) and they nearly messed themselves as I shot past- made muttered comments about not getting warning and were pretty crapped off. Well I DID warn them- they need to pay more attention when out in that environment. There is plenty of signage plus markings on the two main paths (markings the result of local BUG advocacy) showing a) paths are shared and b) direction of travel and it seems that most people are taking notice of that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081205/5aa2c237/at tachment.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld End of bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 7 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081205/47ffc4ae/attachment-0001.htm From museduca at bigpond.net.au Thu Dec 4 22:30:05 2008 From: museduca at bigpond.net.au (Dave Mc) Date: Fri Dec 5 00:46:21 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] RE: cycling on footpaths In-Reply-To: <48AB466BA07D455CB85B17C9634699E8@maud> References: <55836D1BADB04036A118E0498CCF0E13@acer6dff78d94b> <20081205013308.EQRE5136.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> <48AB466BA07D455CB85B17C9634699E8@maud> Message-ID: <22844B728EEE402D9B6AA0836EA1B5D3@acer6dff78d94b> I prob need to be a little more specific- in Hervey Bay shopping centres away from the water front Esplanade the ban often applies within the shopping precinct on the paths immediately outside the shops (which is outside Council jurisdiction I suspect anyway) - the car park areas are generous and I never have any trouble getting close to the shop I want and then mooring the bike. Down on the Esplanade particularly at Torquay and to a lesser extent Scarness and Urangan the businesses face the Esplanade with on-street parking- cyclists let loose on the narrow paths in those few hundred metres in each case create havoc (seen it happen) - but straight across the road is the shared path, and the narrow Esplanade itself while legally 50ks is usually much slower because of so much going on. Failing all else the shared path is prob the best option but I often use the Esplanade keeping an eagle eye out for car doors that mysteriously suddenly fling open in the paths of cyclists. Probably these places would be ideal for some yellow bike signs- there is pretty regular cycle traffic along the Esplanade itself as well as the shared path. So I don't have a problem with those few spots being excluded to cyclists as there plenty of much safer alternatives close by (safer for everybody). These few spots aside the local cycling network here as being planned (and slowly developed by the Council) is heavily reliant on shared paths running south north to the water to link up with east west major non-motorised arteries of the Links Corridor and Foreshore shared paths. The foreshore path as built for the Bicentenary in 1988 is pretty narrow and hopeless for todays conditions in the busier areas. However recent development in many areas has required rebuilds- and the new portions would have to be at least 3 metres wide if not wider. Very generous. Mercifully most peds here now are getting into the swing of "keep to the left" and "passing on the right". Some tourists tho are totally clueless and sprawl all over the path and nearly get themselves killed. Also Ipods/MP3 players represent a real hazard- wearers have no idea you are closing in on them. Not long ago I "belled" an older couple (from a respectable distance) and they nearly messed themselves as I shot past- made muttered comments about not getting warning and were pretty crapped off. Well I DID warn them- they need to pay more attention when out in that environment. There is plenty of signage plus markings on the two main paths (markings the result of local BUG advocacy) showing a) paths are shared and b) direction of travel and it seems that most people are taking notice of that. _____ From: Yani [mailto:akayani@aapt.net.au] Sent: Friday, 5 December 2008 12:48 PM To: 'Michael Yeates'; 'Dave Mc' Cc: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: RE: [bikeqld] FW: bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 "Therefore is there a problem with the PCA advocating against cycling on such footpaths?" There sure as is. When you own a green Honda you see a lot of green Hondas. For those that open their eyes here there are far more people cycling on footpaths than on the road. CBD you cannot cycle on the footpath because there just isn't the space period. The problem in QLD is that too many obnoxious peds 'think' that you can't cycle on the path and go out of their way to be a problem. It's a very very very small effort to move to the side. We should be writing to the Ped's Ass and giving them a 'what for'. Cyclists are peds and car drivers. We should be able to see all sides of the coin. Yani -----Original Message----- From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Michael Yeates Sent: December 5, 2008 11:33 AM To: Dave Mc Cc: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: Re: [bikeqld] FW: bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 Hi Dave and others ... The problem here Dave is that you ARE advocating or at least supporting the banning of cycling on footpaths ... in this case "here in the Bay cycling is banned (on the footpath) around the major shops" ... where I seriously doubt there is anywhere near the pedestrian or motorised traffic as compared to the Sydney CBD where it is proposed to share the footpaths ... and from reports, using a substandard facility ... little wonder PCA is raising the liability stakes and proposing such footpaths not be shared ...! Its quite another matter for the PCA or anyone else to suggest shared footpaths be banned if they comply with current maximum recommended widths and design details ... but even then the context is still absolutely crucial. When Queensland local (road) authorities started to ban cycling on footpaths and as a result, a new Queensland government regulation was introduced, I for one argued strenuously for either bike lanes or preferably, "yellow BIKEs" ALWAYS be provided on the adjacent roadway in part because a cyclist wheeling a bike takes up a lot of lateral width/space and is arguably not wanted in already congested pedestrian spaces including footpaths. I cannot be certain if my suggested conditional approval for use of the cycling bans was ever implemented or indeed adopted eg by Brisbane City Council, but there are many examples of shopping centres where the "yellow BIKEs" have been well utilised and where it should be safe enough for cyclists to travel and to "Share the Road" rather than the footpath. Hopefully with Noosa and Caloundra Councils now amalgamated with Maroochy, the experience of use of the "yellow BIKEs" will now become common on the Sunshine Coast ... hopefully the expertise has not moved elsewhere ... unless that place then benefits from the expertise and experience ...! I suspect even BCC is not too keen on cycling on footpaths in the Brisbane, Valley and many of the suburban CBD areas ... but I must admit I have never noticed any of the necessary signage. But as mentioned previously, it seems ridiculous to not provide for cyclists on roads adjacent to crowded footpaths in such areas. Therefore is there a problem with the PCA advocating against cycling on such footpaths? Is the real issue the failure of cyclists to effectively advocate for "appropriate" conditions on the roads in such locations and elsewhere? MY............................ At 10:38 AM 5/12/2008, Dave Mc wrote: >Gday- I initially missed that it was the Ped Council of Oz that it was >advocation scrapping shared paths- horrors. Qld as we know it is legal to >use a path, and fairly regularly I see cyclists sensibly using the paths >here in Hervey Bay to good advantage. > >I am a reasonably confident vehicular cyclist in traffic- here and brisb - >but even so I quite often opt for a path to make life easier. > >Here in the Bay cycling is banned around the major shops- it is clearly >signed- and in those spots walking the bikes is far better. Otherwise many >of the paths are planned as shared paths. > >There is a wide fast shared/path corridor (3 m from memory) which links the >old suburbs a block or so from the beach parallel to the water and which >feeds into the CBD. Most of the cycling/ped arteries that feed that from the >"inland" new suburbs down to the Links Corridor are either mostly quiet >roads (apart from Denman Camp- which is still bearable) or shared paths. > >To ban cycling on paths here would cause massive disruption to say the >least- hugely counterproductive. > >Dave > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) >From: Flindersia >Subject: Re: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths >To: Ian Lister , > bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >Message-ID: <808489.83530.qm@web62302.mail.re1.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > >I had cause to use the cross river ferry from the City to >Kangaroo point on a rainy night last week. Now there was a mixed sharing of >a >path! > >There were about dozen people waiting for the ferry, all >huddled under one of 'tunnel' areas, and to this is added other pedestrians >with umbrellas and cyclists. All of this was occurring on wet path maybe 2.5 >m >wide. I thought the cyclists were brilliant at negotiating the chaos and the >peds were generally accommodating. > > >Cheers > >Ian > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Yani >To: Ian Lister ; bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >Sent: Wednesday, 3 December, 2008 3:01:08 PM >Subject: RE: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths > >There is danger in living. How nanny minded do we want society to be? > >If you go to the beach, are eaten by a shark, is that the fault of the >lifeguard. > > >What's NOT said is there is NO public education on good behaviour. Outside >of here, most cyclists don't know their rights and most peds think they own >the path and therefore make no effort to make space. > >At the end of the day this proposes banning cyclist from footpaths, many of >which are barely used at all by anyone. And worse banning cyclists from >shared paths that were created to be bikeways. > >The Pedestrian Council of Australia is a lobby group who should be working >with the cycling community to promote outdoor exercise. > >The cycling groups need to make very clear that they support shared paths >but require an investment is advertising/education to lift behaviour >standards. If we take a view that we don't support shared paths then we are >playing into the hands of those who want tight control on all behaviours. > >How exactly do you make such demands work in practise? The one time I had a >near miss it was with a 5yo on the tricycle who suddenly swerved on the >path. Is she a cyclist, a pedestrian or just a danger to the community? > >Safety Nazis. > > >Yani > > > > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > > > Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now >http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:28:50 +1000 >From: Michael Yeates >Subject: RE: [bikeqld] Get it up... >To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >Message-ID: > ><20081203212841.TXER1284.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >Feds to prevent states subsidising petrol ....??? > >States to use that money for "better" projects or lose the equivalent >in federal government grants ...? > >MY.............. > >At 11:43 PM 3/12/2008, Ian Lister wrote: > > >Just scrapping the damned FBT exemption on motor vehicles would have > >to be a good candidate. > > > >Ian > > > >On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, PJL Whittle wrote: > >>Tax cars on their Width x Length? Smaller cars mean more room for bikes in > >>the lane. Make people pay for their inconsiderate, greedy choices. > >> > >>Pete > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >>From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au >[mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] > >>On Behalf Of Yani > >>Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2008 5:28 PM > >>To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > >>Subject: [bikeqld] Get it up... > >> > >> > >> > >>http://www.getup.org.au > >> > >> > >> > >>First I think you guys should be signing up on a no to Internet >censorship. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>But regardless we could pick out an issue that is real for us and get up a > >>petition on this site. > >> > >> > >> > >>They seem to have a professional handle on this stuff. Nice site and worth >a > >>look no matter what. > >> > >> > >> > >>Are we on a good thing with nothing to say or are there general issues to >be > >>addressed? > >> > >> > >> > >>Yani > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To get an issue up theses are the rules > >> > >> > >>Can I suggest an issue to campaign on? > >> > >> > >>Yes, we welcome the ideas and suggestions of GetUp members to help shape >our > >>actions on important national issues. We receive a large volume of emails, > >>so to help us consider your suggestion, please write to > >>campaigns@getup.org.au and tell us briefly: > >> > >>- In one or two lines, what is your campaign about (what problem are you > >>seeking to address)? > >> > >>- What is the desired political outcome (what, specifically, are you >trying > >>to achieve)? > >> > >>- Who has the power to make change happen, or at least influence the > >>political result (should we be targeting dissenting MPs, the media, the > >>Prime Minister)? > >> > >>- What's the campaign's message (i.e. Fund our ABC, or No child belongs in > >>detention)? > >> > >>- What should the campaign ask GetUp members to do (sign a petition, call > >>talkback radio, attend a rally, email their Federal MP)? > >> > >>- Is there a target audience for this campaign (university students, mums > >>and dads, Australians affected by drought)? > >> > >>- What is the timing of this issue (why should we run a campaign about >this > >>now, or later)? > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >bikeqld mailing list > >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ > >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1827 - Release Date: > >3/12/2008 5:41 PM > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > >End of bikeqld Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5 >************************************** > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.14/1829 - Release Date: >4/12/2008 2:59 PM _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081205/36f63d7e/attachment-0001.htm From cameraperson at bigpond.com Fri Dec 5 06:16:49 2008 From: cameraperson at bigpond.com (Mick Fanning) Date: Fri Dec 5 13:18:04 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths In-Reply-To: <286F5FC1DCBA41148667CE5DA777B546@maud> References: <286F5FC1DCBA41148667CE5DA777B546@maud> Message-ID: <2C088A7A-34E4-4ACC-81D4-62E9A2BC8F78@bigpond.com> I think Mr Scruby makes a good point. My daily commute usually only involves only a couple of shared areas. Sometimes it's nearly all on the road (bliss!). The shared areas I use are the Pesch bridge and the Bicentennial (stolen) Bikeway. I have virtually no problems at all with pedestrians, bar the occasional wrong-side-of-the-path pedestrian. You know; the ones who go contraflow, as is recommended for peds on roads without footpaths. The only regular problems I have come from other cyclists. The Coro Dr pathway is a classic example. Every day that I go that way I encounter lycra-clad plonkers who overtake me at speed, with only inches to spare, whilst I am carefully overtaking a law-abiding pedestrian in such a way as to show respect to that pedestrian. I could go on about the recreational idiots who get about early in the morning in large groups and monster law-abiding transportational cyclists, but I think you get the idea by now. Bicycles can easily share space with cars and with pedestrians in an ideal world. But we do not live in an ideal world. We live in Australia, where the culture of speed infects not only motorists but also cyclists. Let's get away from all this piffle about bike lanes and separated bike paths. We don't need them. We need a safe road environment for ALL the community. It seems to me that the obvious starting point is appropriate speed limits. Everything else flows from there. We don't need separate pathways, except for recreational cycling. We don't need bicycle lanes, except in heavily trafficked places like the CBD. Lobbying for separate facilities is capitulation. We will never get a safe road environment for our children or pedestrians or motorists if we follow that path. There is no demonstrated need for the insane speed limits we currently have in Australia. Get yourselves out of that mindset, for heaven's sake. By the way. I'm quite confident when I claim that I probably do more miles per year in a car that all of you on this list, combined. Mick PS Yes, I've had a bad day. On 03/12/2008, at 15:01, Yani wrote: > There is danger in living. How nanny minded do we want society to be? > > If you go to the beach, are eaten by a shark, is that the fault of the > lifeguard. > > > What's NOT said is there is NO public education on good behaviour. > Outside > of here, most cyclists don't know their rights and most peds think > they own > the path and therefore make no effort to make space. > > At the end of the day this proposes banning cyclist from footpaths, > many of > which are barely used at all by anyone. And worse banning cyclists > from > shared paths that were created to be bikeways. > > The Pedestrian Council of Australia is a lobby group who should be > working > with the cycling community to promote outdoor exercise. > > The cycling groups need to make very clear that they support shared > paths > but require an investment is advertising/education to lift behaviour > standards. If we take a view that we don't support shared paths > then we are > playing into the hands of those who want tight control on all > behaviours. > > How exactly do you make such demands work in practise? The one time > I had a > near miss it was with a 5yo on the tricycle who suddenly swerved on > the > path. Is she a cyclist, a pedestrian or just a danger to the > community? > > Safety Nazis. > > > Yani > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bikeqld mailing list > bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. From cameraperson at bigpond.com Fri Dec 5 14:45:00 2008 From: cameraperson at bigpond.com (Mick Fanning) Date: Fri Dec 5 14:45:16 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths In-Reply-To: <2C088A7A-34E4-4ACC-81D4-62E9A2BC8F78@bigpond.com> References: <286F5FC1DCBA41148667CE5DA777B546@maud> <2C088A7A-34E4-4ACC-81D4-62E9A2BC8F78@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <81FB73F1-D31D-4413-8082-04D8003B2B9E@bigpond.com> Just read my last post. I really did have a bad day, didn't I! Should get the discussion going, though. From kim at teegee.com.au Fri Dec 5 06:42:05 2008 From: kim at teegee.com.au (kim) Date: Fri Dec 5 16:45:43 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths In-Reply-To: <2C088A7A-34E4-4ACC-81D4-62E9A2BC8F78@bigpond.com> References: <286F5FC1DCBA41148667CE5DA777B546@maud> <2C088A7A-34E4-4ACC-81D4-62E9A2BC8F78@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <4939219D.4000307@teegee.com.au> And its not just the motorists who won't share their toys, it would seem especially that the Govt. is not willing to share the expensive, well made and useful roads with cyclists viz a viz the ICB, the M1 and M5 Motorways, all the new tunnels. Don't forget that some segregation of traffic actually benefits cyclists. The wide kerbside T3 lanes on Coro drive (ah anybody remember those?) for buses and bikes and the occasional 3 up drivers were arguably a better arrangement than the current T1 lanes. I think that the idea of separating traffic to give priority to a particular class of traffic is not necessarily a bad thing. So is it valid to extend that idea to a pedestrian/ cycle environment with priority lanes/areas for either user deemed to be more needy in a particular route or circumstance? Or looking back the other way, if we advocate for a totally 'shared' approach then should we even be building separate footpaths to keep pedestrians off the road? Perhaps the Euro piazza model might be better? I think a CBD at least, without footpaths, might be damn fine. So what's your view on the Bicentennial Pedalway (putting the Ped back in Bikeway) upgrade, should it become a wider shared path or should it be a wider separated path? The good book certainly recommends a separated design when both ped and cycle traffic is high, which is it in this case. Gotta agree with you about those insane speed limits we have, its pretty unique in this whole world. James St in the Valley was made into a cafe and cinema precinct and they made 'build outs' (garden beds in the road) and a bike lane/zone and the place thrives with pedestrians and yet they left the 60kph zone bang though the middle. Apparently it is a trucking route for the nearby gas works and industry, never mind that those places have been gone for decades. Council informs me that the speed limit was not reviewed as part of the urban renewal of that area, that is a separate department that looks at those things they say. k Mick Fanning wrote: > I think Mr Scruby makes a good point. > > My daily commute usually only involves only a couple of shared areas. > Sometimes it's nearly all on the road (bliss!). > > The shared areas I use are the Pesch bridge and the Bicentennial > (stolen) Bikeway. I have virtually no problems at all with > pedestrians, bar the occasional wrong-side-of-the-path pedestrian. You > know; the ones who go contraflow, as is recommended for peds on roads > without footpaths. The only regular problems I have come from other > cyclists. > > The Coro Dr pathway is a classic example. Every day that I go that way > I encounter lycra-clad plonkers who overtake me at speed, with only > inches to spare, whilst I am carefully overtaking a law-abiding > pedestrian in such a way as to show respect to that pedestrian. I > could go on about the recreational idiots who get about early in the > morning in large groups and monster law-abiding transportational > cyclists, but I think you get the idea by now. > > Bicycles can easily share space with cars and with pedestrians in an > ideal world. But we do not live in an ideal world. We live in > Australia, where the culture of speed infects not only motorists but > also cyclists. Let's get away from all this piffle about bike lanes > and separated bike paths. We don't need them. We need a safe road > environment for ALL the community. It seems to me that the obvious > starting point is appropriate speed limits. Everything else flows from > there. We don't need separate pathways, except for recreational > cycling. We don't need bicycle lanes, except in heavily trafficked > places like the CBD. > > Lobbying for separate facilities is capitulation. We will never get a > safe road environment for our children or pedestrians or motorists if > we follow that path. There is no demonstrated need for the insane > speed limits we currently have in Australia. Get yourselves out of > that mindset, for heaven's sake. > > By the way. I'm quite confident when I claim that I probably do more > miles per year in a car that all of you on this list, combined. > > Mick > PS Yes, I've had a bad day. > > > On 03/12/2008, at 15:01, Yani wrote: > >> There is danger in living. How nanny minded do we want society to be? >> >> If you go to the beach, are eaten by a shark, is that the fault of the >> lifeguard. >> >> >> What's NOT said is there is NO public education on good behaviour. >> Outside >> of here, most cyclists don't know their rights and most peds think >> they own >> the path and therefore make no effort to make space. >> >> At the end of the day this proposes banning cyclist from footpaths, >> many of >> which are barely used at all by anyone. And worse banning cyclists from >> shared paths that were created to be bikeways. >> >> The Pedestrian Council of Australia is a lobby group who should be >> working >> with the cycling community to promote outdoor exercise. >> >> The cycling groups need to make very clear that they support shared >> paths >> but require an investment is advertising/education to lift behaviour >> standards. If we take a view that we don't support shared paths then >> we are >> playing into the hands of those who want tight control on all >> behaviours. >> >> How exactly do you make such demands work in practise? The one time I >> had a >> near miss it was with a 5yo on the tricycle who suddenly swerved on the >> path. Is she a cyclist, a pedestrian or just a danger to the community? >> >> Safety Nazis. >> >> >> Yani >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bikeqld mailing list >> bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >> http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >> http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >> This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > _______________________________________________ > bikeqld mailing list > bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > From akayani at aapt.net.au Fri Dec 5 23:43:35 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Fri Dec 5 23:43:52 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] ABC: Councils urged to scrap shared bike paths In-Reply-To: <4939219D.4000307@teegee.com.au> References: <286F5FC1DCBA41148667CE5DA777B546@maud><2C088A7A-34E4-4ACC-81D4-62E9A2BC8F78@bigpond.com> <4939219D.4000307@teegee.com.au> Message-ID: <001801c95765$954b8e40$0201a8c0@maud> Well there is an opportunity for a petition if we could reach a consensus of agreement. Give you something to write about that has an outcome. Yani From michael at yeatesit.biz Sat Dec 6 20:29:40 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Sat Dec 6 20:29:32 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Fwd: Indro station update Message-ID: <20081207022919.EWPQ21966.nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> FYI .... >Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:26:39 +1000 >To: Michael Yeates >From: Michael Yeates >Subject: Indro station update > >Hi ... > >For those not already aware, large posters indicate the subway to >Indooroopilly CITYTRAIN station will re-open on Monday morning >December 8 ... TOMORROW. > >There will still be heaps of school students this week and despite >requests, the new layout ENCOURAGES cars to drop off at the end >AFTER crossing the main desire lines for cyclists ... so care needed >... as both cars AND pedestrians will be adopting new desire lines >irrespective of the designers intentions. > >Also while it was "suggested" that Railway Avenue would be ONE WAY >from Westminster through to Lambert Road, it appears motorists are >still turning right from Lambert into Railway Ave ... > >And although requested, BCC refused the request for a marked ped >crossing from the northern kerb ramp on Lambert across Railway to >the station concourse ... > >And there is a VERY unnecessary high screen wall built close to the >large eucalypt beside the shared footpath from Lambert across the J >P Bridge to Oxley Road ... almost certainly obscures vision of peds >v cyclists on the bend ...! > >Don't complain or BCC or QT or QR will probably order the tree >removed .. rather than the wall being lowered ...!!! > >So this precinct is yet another example where all involved in the >design ie politicians (Ronan Lee and Jane Prentice), QT, BCC and >design consultants are hiding behind the shared footpath status ... >so there is no need for any proper design ... despite requests and >suggestions and submissions ... peds have priority ... and cyclists >must GIVE WAY to motor traffic ... because to not do so is obviously silly ...! > >As the message seems not to be getting through, while cyclists are >allowed to cycle on all and any footpaths, there is NO NEED for >anything better to be provided and that suits politicians such as >the Lord Mayor who is willing to spend billions on cars ... but >nothing on cycling (or walking or buses) ... here is just another >illustrative example ...! > >Incidentally, this section of Railway Avenue is an ideal SHARED ZONE >with ONE WAY ... EXCEPT CYCLISTS ... stay tuned ... > >Perhaps the Wonder Water Woman (aka Cr Jane Prentice the local Ward >Councillor) will be able to activate BCC and its "Active Transport" >people ... maybe the Lord Mayor ??? > >Meanwhile her local state LNP candidate for the area wants a HUGE >increase in parking spaces for commuters (which will just generate >even more traffic which would be good as it would cause even more >congestion) ... but says NOTHING about improving the precinct for >bus, walking and/or cycling .. how very LNP ...! > >One reason we think he (and Cr Prentice) are silent is that BCC will >not make available its traffic/transport plans for Indooroopilly. > >Given a series of otherwise seemingly unnecessary mandatory road >widening "dedications" as part of development applications, we guess >the plans includes plans for the new road bridge from Coonan Street >to Oxley Road ... wow ... just the thing to increase walking, >cycling and public transport use . > >MY..................................... From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Mon Dec 8 05:55:01 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Mon Dec 8 05:55:14 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: <51529.90139.qm@web44804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> How many? While BCC is keen to advertise that they have spent $55.5M on a magnificent facility the effort to educate the populace as to how many people are using it lags way behind. A full year ago the Active Transport group were selecting bicycle counters for installation on the BCC controlled cycle routes. No more word on those or on the data they are supposed to be collecting since then. Without having current use data the effect of new provisin such as the Ipswich Road overpass cannot be gauged. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline From list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net Mon Dec 8 06:16:45 2008 From: list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net (Ian Lister) Date: Mon Dec 8 06:17:09 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge In-Reply-To: <51529.90139.qm@web44804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <51529.90139.qm@web44804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081208221544.T1933@singha.lister.id.au> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, mich rolling wrote: > A full year ago the Active Transport group were selecting bicycle > counters for installation on the BCC controlled cycle routes. No more > word on those or on the data they are supposed to be collecting since > then. Has BCC been refusing your requests for information? On what grounds? Ian From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Mon Dec 8 07:02:31 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Mon Dec 8 07:02:44 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: <995644.95460.qm@web44816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Carborundum vicim (?) They have worn me down and I haven't asked for nearly a year. Which means it is the annual 'where is the data' time. Main Roads is good, QT so so, BCC was paranoid about releasing information last year. Sadly the expected/indicated posting of bicycle count data on the BCC website has not come to pass. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Mon Dec 8 07:44:58 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Mon Dec 8 07:45:17 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: <435783.58541.qm@web44811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> To be fair to BCC, the Active Transport Unit did supply counts made in 2006 when a Local Government Area project (federally funded?) was run. The Schonell Bridge however seems to be a particular data blindspot however with neither the BCC, Translink, UQ or Main Roads owning up to having publicly releasable usage data for this facility. BCC counters at other locations seem to be a very low priority which is always slipping off the 'to do' list. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline From michael at yeatesit.biz Tue Dec 9 04:58:55 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Tue Dec 9 04:59:23 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge In-Reply-To: <435783.58541.qm@web44811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <435783.58541.qm@web44811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081209105850.JCRD17941.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Not sure what started this discussion but the following might be of use ... or was it what started the discussion ...? http://www.campbellnewman.com.au/article-view.html?articleId=6119 However 205 daily uses is EXTREMELY LOW ... and in addition does not separate out those trips that replace a car trip and those that did not (eg going for a ride for recreation). Care ALWAYS needed with data like this ....! MY............................... At 11:44 PM 8/12/2008, mich rolling wrote: >To be fair to BCC, the Active Transport Unit did supply counts made >in 2006 when a Local Government Area project (federally funded?) was run. > >The Schonell Bridge however seems to be a particular data blindspot >however with neither the BCC, Translink, UQ or Main Roads owning up >to having publicly releasable usage data for this facility. > >BCC counters at other locations seem to be a very low priority which >is always slipping off the 'to do' list. > > > Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter > now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline > > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1838 - Release Date: >8/12/2008 6:16 PM From pharmer_kim at hotmail.com Tue Dec 9 05:55:06 2008 From: pharmer_kim at hotmail.com (kim) Date: Tue Dec 9 05:55:21 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: Hey Michael, unless I misread, I think that's not 205 bike per day either, that's joggers, and prams, pram pushers, dog walkers and probably their dogs as well! How can they infer that an 'object' using a 320m concrete path in a park is any indication that someone is not driving their car instead? You could just as easily argue that it indicates a reduction in tv watching? Its a pretty long bow to draw. Surely you need to count cars and at best correlate both data if you want to make that inference and use it as justification for building scenic meanders in the parks. Better still, why not just ask those who cycle when and why they do and ask those who don't why they don't. Well it does sound like they will be putting a counter on the Green Bridge if that's any consolation, but whatever happened to the Toowong traffic audit which was to show the huge reduction in car traffic as a result of this bridge that would justify getting rid of the T3 and Bus lanes on Coronation Drv and excuse the UoQ from having to contribute a cent for it? I might be cynical, but I have a feeling that those counters being of limited quantity will be positioned where they provide the best 'data' to suit the agenda of the month. k Michael Yeates wrote: > Not sure what started this discussion but the following might be of > use ... or was it what started the discussion ...? > > http://www.campbellnewman.com.au/article-view.html?articleId=6119 > > However 205 daily uses is EXTREMELY LOW ... and in addition does not > separate out those trips that replace a car trip and those that did > not (eg going for a ride for recreation). > > Care ALWAYS needed with data like this ....! > > MY............................... > > At 11:44 PM 8/12/2008, mich rolling wrote: > >> To be fair to BCC, the Active Transport Unit did supply counts made >> in 2006 when a Local Government Area project (federally funded?) was >> run. >> >> The Schonell Bridge however seems to be a particular data blindspot >> however with neither the BCC, Translink, UQ or Main Roads owning up >> to having publicly releasable usage data for this facility. >> >> BCC counters at other locations seem to be a very low priority which >> is always slipping off the 'to do' list. >> >> >> Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now >> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bikeqld mailing list >> bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >> http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >> http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >> This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1838 - Release Date: >> 8/12/2008 6:16 PM > > _______________________________________________ > bikeqld mailing list > bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > _________________________________________________________________ You live life online. So we put Windows on the web. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081209/b8d3051b/attachment.htm From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Tue Dec 9 06:44:06 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Tue Dec 9 06:44:18 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: <120568.90952.qm@web44803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> My post came from my own frustration at not being allowed to see the ESB count data - BCC said UQ was collecting it, UQ said Translink was, etc etc and no-one was authorised to release the data. Campbell Neuman's fortuitous post of Jane Prentice' bicycle count data in response to this discussion just shows that great minds (me and her) think alike! I suspect Jane's new counters are underperforming however as the LGA counts Tuesday 10 October 2006 and Thursday 12 October 2006 for the Riverwalk near William Jolly Bridge (12 hour periods, all directions) were 2047 and 3087 CYCLISTS respectively (1177 and 1190 pedestrians over same period respectively). This puts the Riverwalk as carrying the equivalent of 1-2 lanes x 1hour of traffic on Coronation Drive in morning and afternoon peaks. I understand from the rationale for widening the Bicentennial Bikeway was that cyclist and pedestrian numbers had increased to the point of frequent conflict (crashes/near misses/loss of amenity). Respectfully, I ask Cr Prentice to re-check her figures for the current counts. She appears to have mistaken daily usage numbers (apparently down a bit from 2006 as noted above - 3750 total users (average of each 12 hours in 2006) compared to Cr Prentice' claim of 2374 per day (allowing for her mis-reading of the a daily count for a weekly count). The closest I have previously seen to ESB count data was this snippet from Helen Abrahams (funny that neither Helen nor Bicycle Queensland nor BCC ever made this data more widely available?). Cr Abrahams claims a more realistic figure of 960 cyclists a day using the ESB only 5 months after it opened.. http://helenabrahams.com/media48.html Eleanor Schonell Bridge Cycle Boom 24 May, 2007 Sign Up for free e-mail updates! About 7,000 cyclists a week are using the Eleanor Schonell Bridge, local Councillor (Dutton Park) Helen Abrahams said. ?I am delighted at the results from the bridge?s early cycle counts,? she said. ?We have seen the number of cyclist using the bridge rise from more than 6,300 cyclists a week in January and February, to more than 7,000 a week since then. ?There are more than 960 cyclists a day using the bridge. ?It is also interesting to note that more cyclist on average are travelling from Dutton Park to the University of Queensland than in the other direction. ?For 6 of the 9 weeks, Tuesday was the most popular weekday for commuters. ?The Eleanor Schonell Bridge is an important link for commuter cyclists, but it is also well used by recreational cyclists ? the most popular weekend day in the past 10 weeks has been Sunday. ?The permanent bike counter on the bridge is the first of its kind in Brisbane and I believe we will see even more cyclists using the bridge in the coming months.? Sig Maybe Andrew Demack would have better data? Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline From michael at yeatesit.biz Tue Dec 9 18:53:00 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Tue Dec 9 18:53:15 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Fwd: [WorldCityBike] Stuck in That Congestion? I Got One Suggestion: Use a Bike Rack Message-ID: <20081210005253.RCMU18652.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Hi .... Sadly no cycling groups in Australia and certainly not BFA or BQ strongly and publicly supported the bike racks on buses in Brisbane .. there wasn't even a public comment let alone complaint from BQ when the new Lord Mayor (LM) decided to get rid of them ... and in doing so, wasted the several hundred thousand dollars of investment ... But hopefully if belatedly, the following might be of interest ... esp in the ACT where at least ACTION provides sensible routes for its buses that carry bikes. So informative if a bit late now the car-mad LM of Brisbane has spent good money on removing all the racks and associated equipment and marketing material ... could not wait to get rid of them ... and BQ was it appears silent in public ...! While the USA may not be the best source of all wisdom in transport matters, this is one area that really did/does work ... and I guess that by now there are maybe 40-50,000 buses and coaches with either the 2- or 3-bike racks in use across the USA in all sorts of environments. Interesting then that it was said "nobody was using them" but then again it was also said "people using them were delaying the buses" ... all good media comment for the consumption of the unknowing and uncaring motorists to whom the LM seems to pander. It was an interesting strategy to use these two complaints as either way, more use created a problem that in the LMs mind justified removing the racks ... yet NOBODY asked those who DID use the racks. Also interesting that the LM did not consider that use of the racks reduced car use ... a methodological view he apparently supports if cyclists use paths ... but not buses ...! Enjoy ... Hopefully the LM has trashed the racks ... so the next LM can put them back on again ...! MY................. Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:42:21 +0100 >Subject: [WorldCityBike] Stuck in That Congestion? I Got One >Suggestion: Use a Bike Rack" > >Stolen from our friends over at StreetsBlog.org - >http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/12/08/stuck-in-that-congestion-i-got-one-suggestion-use-a-bike-rack/ > > > >"Stuck >in That Congestion? I Got One Suggestion: Use a Bike Rack" > > > >by Ben Fried on >December 8, 2008 > >Watch this instructional video from the Transit Authority of River >City (that's Louisville, Kentucky), and trust me, you won't be able >to dislodge the chorus from your head for days. I never thought of >bus-mounted bike racks as the stuff of infectious music videos, but >I was wrong -- egregiously wrong. > >Active >Living by Design has the full story on this stroke of marketing >genius, produced after a survey revealed that many young women in >Louisville wanted to use the bike racks but didn't know how. A >follow-up vid on bus etiquette is in the works. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081210/e89a2f80/attachment.htm From pjl.whittle at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 9 19:35:17 2008 From: pjl.whittle at optusnet.com.au (PJL Whittle) Date: Tue Dec 9 19:35:27 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] BikeBingle - application for mapping bike crash locations Message-ID: <82631F9C2DE847A384AF81016280DE8D@qut.edu.au> http://bikebingle.appspot.com/?tab=add Not wishing this on anybody, but there is a perverse pleasure and notoriety to be had from placing the first marker for Brisbane :) Pete -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081210/95394651/attachment.htm From gsfergus at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 9 21:33:01 2008 From: gsfergus at optusnet.com.au (Glen Fergus) Date: Tue Dec 9 21:33:10 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge In-Reply-To: <120568.90952.qm@web44803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <120568.90952.qm@web44803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: mich > Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge > > I suspect Jane's new counters are underperforming however > as the LGA counts Tuesday 10 October 2006 and Thursday 12 > October 2006 for the Riverwalk near William Jolly Bridge > (12 hour periods, all directions) were 2047 and 3087 > CYCLISTS respectively (1177 and 1190 pedestrians over > same period respectively). > ... > Respectfully, I ask Cr Prentice to re-check her figures for > the current counts. She appears to have mistaken daily usage > numbers (apparently down a bit from 2006 as noted above - > 3750 total users (average of each 12 hours in 2006) compared > to Cr Prentice' claim of 2374 per day (allowing for her > mis-reading of the a daily count for a weekly count). Not sure I get you Mich. The Prentice quote has: "The Bicentennial Bikeway recorded an average of 16,618 cyclists per week (an average of 2,374 cyclists per day)..." No obvious week vs day confusion there - maybe the quote has since been corrected? Also, the Prentice count is just cyclists (2374 - the counter is designed to exclude peds), while the average you quote (3750) is cyclists plus peds. The automatic counter numbers actually look reasonably compatible with your manual counts. The average daily cyclists from the two manual counts is 2567, but with high inter-day variance (+/-520). Prentice's longer-term average from the automatic counter is well within the manual count range. Also note that the manual count was at the city end of the BB, while the automatic counter is out near the Regatta, where one might expect fewer cyclists. It's not at all unusual for automatic traffic counters to need some correction factor, estimated by comparison with manual counts. Presumably BCC have done that exercise and applied such a correction. G. From list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net Tue Dec 9 21:42:26 2008 From: list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net (Ian Lister) Date: Tue Dec 9 21:42:48 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge In-Reply-To: References: <120568.90952.qm@web44803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081210133718.R1933@singha.lister.id.au> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Glen Fergus wrote: > Not sure I get you Mich. The Prentice quote has: > "The Bicentennial Bikeway recorded an average of 16,618 > cyclists per week (an average of 2,374 cyclists per day)..." > > No obvious week vs day confusion there - maybe the quote > has since been corrected? [snip] That seems to have been what happened. Yesterday the article started along the lines of "More than 150 cars trips are taken off the roads every day by people using..." and today it starts "More than 2200 car trips are taken off the roads every day by people cycling...". There's been a big correction to the numbers (by a factor of roughly 14), it's much more clear that it's talking about cyclists and not peds today, and the talk of "return trips" has been replaced by just "trips". I wonder what it will say tomorrow. Cheers, Ian From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Wed Dec 10 07:21:30 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Wed Dec 10 07:21:44 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: <204230.75318.qm@web44812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Good to see the proper numbers up on the Campbell Newman's website. ? Glen, if you like I will post a .txt copy of the original media release on Campbell's website but Ian has shown how the mistaken original numbers have been corrected. ? Cr Prentice is to be commended for presenting the correct figures. ? A follow-up on the cycle numbers recorded from the Schonell Bridge?counters described in Cr Abraham's 18month old media release would be welcomed also. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081210/48e17a84/attachment.htm From adsliif2 at tpg.com.au Wed Dec 10 18:26:51 2008 From: adsliif2 at tpg.com.au (John Nightingale) Date: Wed Dec 10 18:27:30 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Check out SMH this morning Message-ID: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/harbour-tunnel-a-1b-black-hole/2008/12/1 0/1228584929835.html Look out, River City M'way and BrisConnections. Negative share price is where an owner pays someone to take shares off their hands. Can't happen? Why not? Next, to try to find a private partner for Northern Link... Or will the 'private partner' be the Federal Govt? J From list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net Wed Dec 10 21:29:51 2008 From: list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net (Ian Lister) Date: Wed Dec 10 21:30:08 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge In-Reply-To: <20081210133718.R1933@singha.lister.id.au> References: <120568.90952.qm@web44803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20081210133718.R1933@singha.lister.id.au> Message-ID: <20081211132748.M1933@singha.lister.id.au> For anybody still vaguely interested, I dug up the original version of the article that appeared on the LM's site, claiming 150 trips per day: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mediawiki/images/a/ae/Newman_bikeway_counts_article_150.pdf The updated version is here: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mediawiki/images/c/cb/Newman_bikeway_counts_article_2200.pdf Cheers, Ian On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Ian Lister wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Glen Fergus wrote: [snip] >> No obvious week vs day confusion there - maybe the quote >> has since been corrected? > [snip] > > That seems to have been what happened. Yesterday the article started along > the lines of "More than 150 cars trips are taken off the roads every day by > people using..." and today it starts "More than 2200 car trips are taken off > the roads every day by people cycling...". There's been a big correction to > the numbers (by a factor of roughly 14), it's much more clear that it's > talking about cyclists and not peds today, and the talk of "return trips" has > been replaced by just "trips". > > I wonder what it will say tomorrow. > > Cheers, > > Ian > From michael at yeatesit.biz Wed Dec 10 21:49:12 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Wed Dec 10 21:49:13 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] news from ABC at mid-day Message-ID: <20081211034902.QAYM18392.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Hi all ... Two items of interest on ABC TV at 12 noon today ... #1 ... CPF promoting cycling ... the current growth industry defying the economic downturn and promoting cycling as an ideal place to spend a lot more of the commonwealth infrastructure funds ... #2 ... NSW government is exposed to $1b due to under-use of the toll tunnel ... not sure which ... but the item later "corrected" that be reporting it was due to over-estimating the likely use ... in other words, cooking the books. Wonder how the books have been cooked here re the massive tunnels and other projects in SEQ and esp Brisbane ...? Could be the legacy of LM Newman is a huge ongoing debt for us to pay ...! MY.................. From gsfergus at optusnet.com.au Wed Dec 10 23:24:11 2008 From: gsfergus at optusnet.com.au (Glen Fergus) Date: Wed Dec 10 23:24:24 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] news from ABC at mid-day In-Reply-To: <20081211034902.QAYM18392.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> References: <20081211034902.QAYM18392.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Message-ID: <24692487D0C842F4A08B0ADA87084AFE@golder.gds> > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Yeates > Subject: [bikeqld] news from ABC at mid-day > > #2 ... NSW government is exposed to $1b due to under-use of the toll > tunnel ... not sure which ... but the item later "corrected" that be > reporting it was due to over-estimating the likely use ... in other > words, cooking the books. It's the Harbour Tunnel, according to John N's linked article. The $1B is over ~14 years, so it's not as bad as it looks. Back when the tunnel was built it was popular for state governments to avoid Loans Council (ie Federal) borrowing controls by moving infrastructure debt off the books via sham toll deals. Ours did it with the original Gateway Bridge. NSW appears to have done a particularly bad long term deal on this one. G. From r.hockey at sph.uq.edu.au Thu Dec 11 17:13:10 2008 From: r.hockey at sph.uq.edu.au (Richard Hockey) Date: Thu Dec 11 17:13:23 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail Message-ID: http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24789053-953,00.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081212/b94909b8/attachment.htm From doctorw1963 at yahoo.com.au Thu Dec 11 21:34:07 2008 From: doctorw1963 at yahoo.com.au (Anthony Lee) Date: Thu Dec 11 21:34:18 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant Message-ID: <242768.64895.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >From the Courier Mail AUSTRALIAN drivers are among the most ignorant and selfish in the world when it comes to cyclists, according to Tour de France hero Cadel Evans. Evans, who spends half his year in Europe and half in Victoria, has been the victim of several near misses. "I drive on the road and I don't like people just not having respect for other road users," he said. "I spend half my year in Europe so I know what the traffic is like there. "It is really strange, to be honest, the way Australian drivers are. "Our roads have much less traffic, are far larger, and the drivers have much more space, but they are much more aggressive and negative to other road users. "When you ride a race in Italy or Switzerland or France, the roads are much narrower and there is much more traffic, but the drivers are much more tolerant and easier to deal with. It is a bit of a shame." While Europe has a much stronger cycling culture, Evans blamed Australian driver selfishness. "They feel like because they are in their car they have the right to use all the road, and everyone else on the road should be off it," he said. Evans has been a strong supporter of the Amy Gillett Foundation, established after the AIS cyclist was killed by a car in Germany. He will join the fundraising Amy's Ride on January 4. He will head to Shepparton tomorrow to take part in Scotty's Ride, in honour of Scott Peoples, who was killed by a four-wheel drive near Mansfield in December 2006. Anthony Lee The Doctor -- the last of the Time Lords? ........-- __o ....-- _ \<,_ ........(_) / (_) E-Mail: doctorw1963@yahoo.com.au Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081211/f8c2f40a/attachment.htm From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Sat Dec 13 01:33:23 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Sat Dec 13 01:33:36 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: <18170.87975.qm@web44804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Would an increase in cyclist/pedestrian numbers ever be enough to enable Brisconnections or another motorway operator to invoke a 'no contestable alternative' clause in a tollway contract? ? What might be a trigger? 10,000 cyclists a day on the Centennial cycleway? Not really a serious question although it might relate to non-motorway transport options for intra-city personal transport, aka commuting. Would tollways be necessary for commercial traffic only if commuters were kept off inter-city motorways? ? "The Bicentennial Bikeway recorded an average of 16,618 cyclists per week (an average of 2,374 cyclists per day) and Mowbray Park recorded an average of 3,507 cyclists per week (an average of 501 cyclists per day) according to our new 24-hour automated counters," Cr Prentice said. "That number of people cycling is the equivalent of taking 2,212 cars per day off the road." Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081212/d1f9a7c3/attachment.htm From michael at yeatesit.biz Sat Dec 13 02:23:15 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Sat Dec 13 02:23:14 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge In-Reply-To: <18170.87975.qm@web44804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <18170.87975.qm@web44804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081213082258.RFI631.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Good questions Mich ... Somehow the assumption that x cyclists crossing a measuring device on a path equals a certain number less car trips has to be extracted from Council's assumptions and very carefully and widely tested ... and as it is flawed, shown just how flawed it might be. As pointed out elsewhere, extreme care is needed as to whether these are one way or both ways numbers ... or if one way, they are then doubled assuming that corridor will be used for the return trip or one trip counted several times if taking a long ride that crosses more than one cordon line. From these figures below and from the recent "mistakes", Cr Prentice seems to be increasingly careless with the figures ...! Also how many are really legitimate car trip replacements? Just to give two examples ... my trips by bike to school did not mean less car trips ... as the family car still went more or less the same way to work each day ... and for a while I worked opposite the school where my two boys went to school ... and my car was necessary for that type of work ... whether they came with me, walked or cycled ... or caught the bus ...! There also seem to be large numbers of bicycles being taken for a ride on the back of cars and in utes etc ... and quite a lot of the early morning "lycra" groups appear to start and/or finish at car parks ... where the bike goes onto or into a car. So the "real" question is getting a grip on the proportion of cyclists that replace or reduce car trips. Of interest and relevance, quite a few of the previous generation of cyclists who raced not only trained by cycling to work, but there are some stories of them cycling to the event, then cycling back ... no car involved at all. How many of our racing and large group cyclists do not use a car for their cycling trips? One such event involved a well known cyclist who cycled from Brisbane to Murwillumbah on Saturday competed then cycled back to Brisbane on Sunday afternoon ... and of course there are the legends of commuter cyclists such as former Treasurer David Hamill's father who cycled from Ipswich to work (not sure if he was a ship or bridge builder but heavy work - not an air-conditioned office job) then cycled home daily. The road wasn't too flash then either ...! The other issue is in regard to cordon line measures such as these where there are so few useful cycling routes available. As a result, (i) cyclists are corralled onto the routes so the numbers while useful to politicians to chest thump their successes, are likely to be very exaggerated if generalised across Brisbane where on some corridors (or desire lines) there might be barely 10-20 cyclists per day and (ii) because of the concentration the increased use will lead to the EXISTING facilities being expanded in preference to any new ie additional routes being provided thus further generating more increases and more apparent successes on the EXISTING routes but increasingly constraining cycling on the other routes/corridors. It follows therefore that it is the corridors or desire lines where there are few or no facilities where counts should also take place to justify facilities or road improvements in those corridors due to the low numbers of cyclists. It is for these reasons and the "no competition" clauses in the various road contracts that it will be interesting to see whether any useful cycling improvements are part of or result from these latest motorway and tunnel projects or whether the CVB and Gateway 1 and Gateway 2 experiences are repeated ... ie either no or poor or unconnected facilities that at best are token and/or symbolic gestures. I recall Maureen Hayes expressing concern that too many cyclists might tend to reduce bus passenger rates of use ... mmmmmm!!! It is interesting to then look at the BCC bike facility maps and see where the necessary facilities are NOT placed ... along main road cycling desire lines such as Oxley Road and along bus routes on main roads ... this despite bus lanes being such an ideal win:win. So is this yet another reason for not putting useful cycling facilities along roads where needed ... eg in the west, Moggill Road and of course, Waterworks Road ... and for promoting the growth on the very few cycling routes? Is the sudden interest in promoting the growth in cycling yet another "illusory bargain" aka a "Trojan horse" and able to be used to justify NOT providing for cycling where facilities or improvements are needed? MY....................... At 05:33 PM 13/12/2008, mich rolling wrote: >Would an increase in cyclist/pedestrian numbers ever be enough to >enable Brisconnections or another motorway operator to invoke a 'no >contestable alternative' clause in a tollway contract? > >What might be a trigger? 10,000 cyclists a day on the Centennial >cycleway? Not really a serious question although it might relate to >non-motorway transport options for intra-city personal transport, >aka commuting. Would tollways be necessary for commercial traffic >only if commuters were kept off inter-city motorways? > >"The Bicentennial Bikeway recorded an average of 16,618 cyclists per >week (an average of 2,374 cyclists per day) and Mowbray Park >recorded an average of 3,507 cyclists per week (an average of 501 >cyclists per day) according to our new 24-hour automated counters," >Cr Prentice said. >"That number of people cycling is the equivalent of taking 2,212 >cars per day off the road." > > >Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. >Enter >now. >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1846 - Release Date: >12/12/2008 6:59 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081213/c3e84f8e/attachment.htm From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Sun Dec 14 16:24:06 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Sun Dec 14 16:25:35 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: <883634.5394.qm@web44810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Michael, you are a knowledgable man and can obviously argue your way around statistics and sampling methods. I have a basic knowledge of statistics and sampling theory as well but not in the social sciences as you do. ? However, you are losing me with where you are going with the comments previous. ? I argue that ANY numbers on ridership are useful, however sketchily collected. Cordon counts may well count one bike five times (Bowen Hills through Normandy Tunnel =1,? Centennial Bikeway to Toowong =2, Toowong to Jindalee (Dean St) =3, and reverse to Toowong (=5), return via Schonell Bridge to avoid pm peds & bikes on Biecentennial =6, and Stanley St (=7) back through Normandy to Bown Hills (=8). That was roughly my exercise ride when I worked from home. ? Is that 1 trip or 8 uses of cycling facilities? ? At 67c / km health benefits that 20km ride is worth $13.40 x 4 times a week = $53.60 / week saving to the health system. Savings to congestion are zero as without the cycleways I would not be cycling. ? Intensive use of one cycleway with a limited catchment would surely suggest that building new cycleways in unserviced areas is a reasonable thing, even without current (non-use) rider counts. As I am finding in my work BACI experiments are a rare luxury. ? ? Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081214/d03eeb32/attachment.htm From r.hockey at sph.uq.edu.au Sun Dec 14 19:24:41 2008 From: r.hockey at sph.uq.edu.au (Richard Hockey) Date: Sun Dec 14 19:24:51 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes - brisbanetimes.com.au Message-ID: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/war-on-our-footpaths/200 8/12/15/1229189476846.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081215/2333cdf3/attachment.htm From michael at yeatesit.biz Sun Dec 14 20:44:14 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Sun Dec 14 20:44:35 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge In-Reply-To: <883634.5394.qm@web44810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <883634.5394.qm@web44810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081215024418.MQVT18652.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Thanks Mich, You give an excellent example of the multiple benefits and uses of data and ask is it 1 trip or use or 8 trips or uses? That is measuring bike use rather than trips although it may be that the two coincide for some people ... its just that cordon counts can't accurately tell ... and further can't tell if the bike trip/use replaced a car trip. On Cr Prentice's assessment, the assumption appears to be that each of the counts is related directly to a reduction in car use, so in your example or case study (using say a factor of 1.2 people per car), the info from BCC via Cr Prentice seems to be suggesting that your trip if you were counted 8 times would represent somewhere between 1 and 7 fewer cars on the road. The other points you make re savings then apply although I obviously do not accept that ALL cycling trips would be car trips if the converse applied ... indeed there is some suggestion/concern that cycling may replace walking and/or public transport rather than car use ... but again where is the data/evidence to argue or discuss that? Personally, and for my purposes, I find the inconvenience of cycling (eg mainly parking security and load carrying) still tends to be the major issue compared with choices to use bus and/or train or car ... and that kind of data is best discovered by case studies or small detailed samples ... one hopes in addition to the cordon count data. That sort of data may well lead to evidence which does not support the trend that is implied in the $100m shared footpaths projects ... eg much better bike locker and other forms of secure bike parking availability and local identified "safer" road routes that encourage many more people to use a bike to get to and from local public transport, shops and schools where frequent car trips can genuinely be claimed to replace car trips. MY........................... At 08:24 AM 15/12/2008, mich rolling wrote: >I argue that ANY numbers on ridership are useful, however sketchily >collected. Cordon counts may well count one bike five times (Bowen >Hills through Normandy Tunnel =1, Centennial Bikeway to Toowong =2, >Toowong to Jindalee (Dean St) =3, and reverse to Toowong (=5), >return via Schonell Bridge to avoid pm peds & bikes on Biecentennial >=6, and Stanley St (=7) back through Normandy to Bown Hills (=8). >That was roughly my exercise ride when I worked from home. > >Is that 1 trip or 8 uses of cycling facilities? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081215/94beacc7/attachment.htm From akayani at aapt.net.au Mon Dec 15 07:10:04 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Mon Dec 15 07:10:26 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All these people who get stuck behind a cycling group, likely once in their life and complain forever. In all my '34 years' I've been behind one. Yani _____ From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Richard Hockey Sent: December 15, 2008 11:25 AM To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/war-on-our-footpaths/2008/12 /15/1229189476846.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081215/7eccb5fd/attachment.htm From ben at creative-engineering.com.au Mon Dec 15 16:12:55 2008 From: ben at creative-engineering.com.au (Ben Guymer) Date: Mon Dec 15 16:13:11 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes-brisbanetimes.com.au References: Message-ID: <6952B6CD0B9F405F924BEBD86D60C720@Toaster> Yes anyone would think it not possible to ride alone. I guess that doesn't attract much attention though. Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: Yani To: 'Richard Hockey' ; bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:10 PM Subject: RE: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes-brisbanetimes.com.au All these people who get stuck behind a cycling group, likely once in their life and complain forever. In all my '34 years' I've been behind one. Yani ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Richard Hockey Sent: December 15, 2008 11:25 AM To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/war-on-our-footpaths/2008/12/15/1229189476846.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081216/8a11c8fa/attachment.htm From Ken.Yeo at allianz.com.au Mon Dec 15 16:21:31 2008 From: Ken.Yeo at allianz.com.au (Ken.Yeo@allianz.com.au) Date: Mon Dec 15 16:21:48 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I guess you just need to pedal faster. :-D "Yani" Sent by: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au 15/12/2008 11:10 PM Please respond to akayani@aapt.net.au Please consider the environment before printing this email To "'Richard Hockey'" , cc Subject RE: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au All these people who get stuck behind a cycling group, likely once in their life and complain forever. In all my ?34 years? I?ve been behind one. Yani From:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Richard Hockey Sent: December 15, 2008 11:25 AM To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland- BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/war-on-our-footpaths/2008/12/15/1229189476846.html _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. --- Please consider the environment before printing this email --- Allianz - Best General Insurance Company 2006* Allianz - Best General Insurance Company 2007* *Australian Banking and Finance Insurance Awards This email and any attachments has been sent by Allianz Australia Insurance Limited (ABN 15 000 122 850) and is intended solely for the addressee. It is confidential, may contain personal information and may be subject to legal professional privilege. Unauthorised use is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this by mistake, confidentiality and any legal privilege are not waived or lost and we ask that you contact the sender and delete and destroy this and any other copies. In relation to any legal use you may make of the contents of this email, you must ensure that you comply with the Privacy Act (Cth) 1988 and you should note that the contents may be subject to copyright and therefore may not be reproduced, communicated or adapted without the express consent of the owner of the copyright. Allianz will not be liable in connection with any data corruption, interruption, delay, computer virus or unauthorised access or amendment to the contents of this email. If this email is a commercial electronic message and you would prefer not to receive further commercial electronic messages from Allianz, please forward a copy of this email to unsubscribe@allianz.com.au with the word unsubscribe in the subject header. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081216/0292fc1f/attachment.htm From pjl.whittle at optusnet.com.au Mon Dec 15 16:31:49 2008 From: pjl.whittle at optusnet.com.au (PJL Whittle) Date: Mon Dec 15 16:32:04 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland -BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Haha, good one :) Actuallly that hits the nail on the head. These people only need to be a little patient, before they can accelerate past and catch up the traffic at the next red light. Do cyclists really slow them down, or is it the other cars? The problem would seem a lot worse to those who use the (very uncommon) busy cycling roads like Hillside Road in St Lucia and King Arthur Tce in Yeerongpilly. The smart motorists (ok, I see the pun) might leave 2-3 minutes early to compensate. Pete _____ From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Ken.Yeo@allianz.com.au Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2008 8:22 AM To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: RE: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland -BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au I guess you just need to pedal faster. :-D "Yani" Sent by: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au 15/12/2008 11:10 PM Please respond to akayani@aapt.net.au Please consider the environment before printing this email To "'Richard Hockey'" , cc Subject RE: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au All these people who get stuck behind a cycling group, likely once in their life and complain forever. In all my '34 years' I've been behind one. Yani _____ From:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Richard Hockey Sent: December 15, 2008 11:25 AM To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland- BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/war-on-our-footpaths/2008/12 /15/1229189476846.html _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. --- Please consider the environment before printing this email --- Allianz - Best General Insurance Company 2006* Allianz - Best General Insurance Company 2007* *Australian Banking and Finance Insurance Awards This email and any attachments has been sent by Allianz Australia Insurance Limited (ABN 15 000 122 850) and is intended solely for the addressee. It is confidential, may contain personal information and may be subject to legal professional privilege. Unauthorised use is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this by mistake, confidentiality and any legal privilege are not waived or lost and we ask that you contact the sender and delete and destroy this and any other copies. In relation to any legal use you may make of the contents of this email, you must ensure that you comply with the Privacy Act (Cth) 1988 and you should note that the contents may be subject to copyright and therefore may not be reproduced, communicated or adapted without the express consent of the owner of the copyright. Allianz will not be liable in connection with any data corruption, interruption, delay, computer virus or unauthorised access or amendment to the contents of this email. If this email is a commercial electronic message and you would prefer not to receive further commercial electronic messages from Allianz, please forward a copy of this email to unsubscribe@allianz.com.au with the word unsubscribe in the subject header. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081216/19aa9195/attachment-0001.htm From michael at yeatesit.biz Mon Dec 15 17:20:00 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Mon Dec 15 17:20:35 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland -BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081215232003.MUMA28836.nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Mmmmmmmmmm... Perhaps .... motorists should be expected to travel slower ? Especially on roads (actually streets) such as Hillside Terrace and King Arthur Terrace ... ie more like Nadine Street at Chelmer/Graceville? Remember that these are residential streets and not main roads ... and as such if in Europe more likely to have a 30km/h speed limit than 60 or 50? About the speed that a fast cyclist travels seems ... well ... sensible ...! Then the slower cyclists can use the footpaths if they so choose. It is insane to have speed limits set higher than most vehicles (ie including cyclists) actually travel. The slower speed limit is good for all sorts of other reasons too don't forget ... :-D :-D MY................ At 08:31 AM 16/12/2008, PJL Whittle wrote: >Haha, good one :) > >Actuallly that hits the nail on the head. These people only need to >be a little patient, before they can accelerate past and catch up >the traffic at the next red light. Do cyclists really slow them >down, or is it the other cars? > >The problem would seem a lot worse to those who use the (very >uncommon) busy cycling roads like Hillside Road in St Lucia and King >Arthur Tce in Yeerongpilly. The smart motorists (ok, I see the pun) >might leave 2-3 minutes early to compensate. > >Pete > > >---------- >From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au >[mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Ken.Yeo@allianz.com.au >Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2008 8:22 AM >To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >Subject: RE: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland >-BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au > > >I guess you just need to pedal faster. > >:-D > > > > > >"Yani" >Sent by: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au > >15/12/2008 11:10 PM >Please respond to >akayani@aapt.net.au > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this email > >To >"'Richard Hockey'" , >cc >Subject >RE: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland - >BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au > > > > > > >All these people who get stuck behind a cycling group, likely once >in their life and complain forever. > > > >In all my '34 years' I've been behind one. > > > >Yani > > > > >---------- > > > >From:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au >[mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Richard Hockey >Sent: December 15, 2008 11:25 AM >To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland- BrisbaneTimes >-brisbanetimes.com.au > > > >http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/war-on-our-footpaths/2008/12/15/1229189476846.html > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > >--- Please consider the environment before printing this email --- > >Allianz - Best General Insurance Company 2006* >Allianz - Best General Insurance Company 2007* > >*Australian Banking and Finance Insurance Awards > >This email and any attachments has been sent by Allianz Australia >Insurance Limited (ABN 15 000 122 850) and is intended solely for >the addressee. It is confidential, may contain personal information >and may be subject to legal professional privilege. Unauthorised use >is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received >this by mistake, confidentiality and any legal privilege are not >waived or lost and we ask that you contact the sender and delete and >destroy this and any other copies. In relation to any legal use you >may make of the contents of this email, you must ensure that you >comply with the Privacy Act (Cth) 1988 and you should note that the >contents may be subject to copyright and therefore may not be >reproduced, communicated or adapted without the express consent of >the owner of the copyright. Allianz will not be liable in connection >with any data corruption, interruption, delay, computer virus or >unauthorised access or amendment to the contents of this email. If >this email is a commercial electronic message and you would prefer >not to receive further commercial electronic messages from Allianz, >please forward a copy of this email to unsubscribe@allianz.com.au >with the word unsubscribe in the subject header. > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1850 - Release Date: >15/12/2008 5:04 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081216/a2ee4f93/attachment.htm From kim at teegee.com.au Mon Dec 15 07:49:31 2008 From: kim at teegee.com.au (kim) Date: Mon Dec 15 17:53:14 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4946606B.5030106@teegee.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081215/7040858e/attachment.htm From pjl.whittle at optusnet.com.au Mon Dec 15 19:31:54 2008 From: pjl.whittle at optusnet.com.au (PJL Whittle) Date: Mon Dec 15 19:32:05 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail In-Reply-To: <4946606B.5030106@teegee.com.au> References: <4946606B.5030106@teegee.com.au> Message-ID: <3F219AF3DAF8443CBD8F99A94E774ED8@qut.edu.au> Good on you Kim. Follow up with a complaint to the Press Council? Pete _____ From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of kim Sent: Monday, 15 December 2008 11:50 PM To: BikeQld Subject: Re: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail Both this piece in the CM and the shared path article in the BT stirred up the usual contingent of cycle haters. The CM editors must delight in stirring things up and show no restraint in the reader comments they publish. Depending on how early you read the article and any of the comments, some may have noticed a particularly nasty one posted and published at 7:50am by a Brett . In his comment he basically said he would continue to knock down cyclists who got in his way on the road. I spoke to the CM's online editor and asked why he would publish such threats. He said he did not think the guy was serious and that he would deliberately injure a cyclist and that I could write something in defence. I told him that I had reported it to the police as using an internet carriage service to make a threat on somebody's life. The posting was removed instantly but a lot of cyclists had read it and posted back by then. I did actually report it to the police but they told me that it 'would be very difficult to find out who posted it' and that I should take the matter up with the CM myself. I bet though, if the guy had threatened to blow up a police station they would have no trouble tracking down the poster. None the less deterred, I then sent off my gripe with the CM, the poster and the police to the Police Minister. Here's the nob's comment that the CM saw perfectly fit to publish: I will give way to cyclist's on the road when they start paying taxes to use it. (rego / insurance etc etc) . Until then I will knock them down when they get in my way . TO all pushbike riders you have road rules . Don't abuse - use the bike paths . Posted by: Brett of 7:50am today Richard Hockey wrote: http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24789053-953,00.html _____ _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081216/3e662eb8/attachment-0001.htm From akayani at aapt.net.au Mon Dec 15 20:22:59 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Mon Dec 15 20:24:02 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail In-Reply-To: <4946606B.5030106@teegee.com.au> References: <4946606B.5030106@teegee.com.au> Message-ID: Excellent. BS the BSers. Next time you can just say "I'm reporting it to the police as we did last time to get the post taken down. And they assure me that if required they can access your server logs and identity the individual via the IP address! Vilification is against the law as is participating in it." Yani _____ From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of kim Sent: December 15, 2008 11:50 PM To: BikeQld Subject: Re: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail Both this piece in the CM and the shared path article in the BT stirred up the usual contingent of cycle haters. The CM editors must delight in stirring things up and show no restraint in the reader comments they publish. Depending on how early you read the article and any of the comments, some may have noticed a particularly nasty one posted and published at 7:50am by a Brett . In his comment he basically said he would continue to knock down cyclists who got in his way on the road. I spoke to the CM's online editor and asked why he would publish such threats. He said he did not think the guy was serious and that he would deliberately injure a cyclist and that I could write something in defence. I told him that I had reported it to the police as using an internet carriage service to make a threat on somebody's life. The posting was removed instantly but a lot of cyclists had read it and posted back by then. I did actually report it to the police but they told me that it 'would be very difficult to find out who posted it' and that I should take the matter up with the CM myself. I bet though, if the guy had threatened to blow up a police station they would have no trouble tracking down the poster. None the less deterred, I then sent off my gripe with the CM, the poster and the police to the Police Minister. Here's the nob's comment that the CM saw perfectly fit to publish: I will give way to cyclist's on the road when they start paying taxes to use it. (rego / insurance etc etc) . Until then I will knock them down when they get in my way . TO all pushbike riders you have road rules . Don't abuse - use the bike paths . Posted by: Brett of 7:50am today Richard Hockey wrote: http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24789053-953,00.html _____ _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081216/dbbebedd/attachment.htm From doctorw1963 at yahoo.com.au Mon Dec 15 20:26:08 2008 From: doctorw1963 at yahoo.com.au (Anthony Lee) Date: Mon Dec 15 20:26:24 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail References: <4946606B.5030106@teegee.com.au> Message-ID: <26203.85542.qm@web51002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> That is interesting Kim. I was riding outbound from UQ next to the St. Lucia Golf Course when this guy in a white car nearly push me off the road! Anthony Lee The Doctor -- the last of the Time Lords? ........-- __o ....-- _ \<,_ ........(_) / (_) E-Mail: doctorw1963@yahoo.com.au ________________________________ From: kim To: BikeQld Sent: Monday, 15 December, 2008 11:49:31 PM Subject: Re: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail Both this piece in the CM and the shared path article in the BT stirred up the usual contingent of cycle haters. The CM editors must delight in stirring things up and show no restraint in the reader comments they publish. Depending on how early you read the article and any of the comments, some may have noticed a particularly nasty one posted and published at 7:50am by a Brett . In his comment he basically said he would continue to knock down cyclists who got in his way on the road. I spoke to the CM's online editor and asked why he would publish such threats. He said he did not think the guy was serious and that he would deliberately injure a cyclist and that I could write something in defence. I told him that I had reported it to the police as using an internet carriage service to make a threat on somebody's life. The posting was removed instantly but a lot of cyclists had read it and posted back by then. I did actually report it to the police but they told me that it 'would be very difficult to find out who posted it' and that I should take the matter up with the CM myself. I bet though, if the guy had threatened to blow up a police station they would have no trouble tracking down the poster. None the less deterred, I then sent off my gripe with the CM, the poster and the police to the Police Minister. Here's the nob's comment that the CM saw perfectly fit to publish: I will give way to cyclist's on the road when they start paying taxes to use it. (rego / insurance etc etc) . Until then I will knock them down when they get in my way . TO all pushbike riders you have road rules . Don't abuse - use the bike paths .Posted by: Brett of 7:50am today Richard Hockey wrote: http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24789053-953,00.html ________________________________ _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081215/5f958a94/attachment.htm From akayani at aapt.net.au Mon Dec 15 20:29:49 2008 From: akayani at aapt.net.au (Yani) Date: Mon Dec 15 20:30:07 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland-BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au In-Reply-To: <20081215232003.MUMA28836.nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> References: <20081215232003.MUMA28836.nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Message-ID: <91B0ECC816D041A8A18FA64A4A8C6813@maud> I dream of being an annoying FAST cyclist. The never attack the 'fat work clothes clad cyclist', just the 'Lycra Lads'. But yet we are all 'Lycra Lads' until further notice. Yani _____ From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of Michael Yeates Sent: December 16, 2008 9:20 AM To: pjl.whittle@optusnet.com.au Cc: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: RE: [bikeqld] War on our footpaths - Queensland-BrisbaneTimes -brisbanetimes.com.au Mmmmmmmmmm... Perhaps .... motorists should be expected to travel slower ? Especially on roads (actually streets) such as Hillside Terrace and King Arthur Terrace ... ie more like Nadine Street at Chelmer/Graceville? Remember that these are residential streets and not main roads ... and as such if in Europe more likely to have a 30km/h speed limit than 60 or 50? About the speed that a fast cyclist travels seems ... well ... sensible ...! Then the slower cyclists can use the footpaths if they so choose. It is insane to have speed limits set higher than most vehicles (ie including cyclists) actually travel. The slower speed limit is good for all sorts of other reasons too don't forget ... :-D :-D MY................ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081216/87b7b71d/attachment-0001.htm From doctorw1963 at yahoo.com.au Mon Dec 15 20:43:20 2008 From: doctorw1963 at yahoo.com.au (Anthony Lee) Date: Mon Dec 15 20:43:31 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] QLD Parliament examining ways to reduce car reliance References: <583978.74321.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <286062.40181.qm@web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Does everyone know about this inquiry? http://www.getinvolved.qld.gov.au/consultqld/index.cfm?go=consultonline.viewIssue&activityID=199 Anthony Lee The Doctor -- the last of the Time Lords? ........-- __o ....-- _ \<,_ ........(_) / (_) E-Mail: doctorw1963@yahoo.com.au ________________________________ From: Brisbane CBD BUG To: cbdbug@yahoo.com.au Sent: Monday, 15 December, 2008 10:50:24 AM Subject: December 2008 CBD BUG meeting notice Hello CBD BUG members The final CBD BUG monthly meeting for 2008 will be held at 12.30 pm on Wednesday 17 December 2008in the Community Meeting Room, Ground Floor, Brisbane Square Library. The meeting?s full agenda is provided at the end of this email. Regards Paul French Co-convenor CBD BUG CBD BUG GENERAL MEETING Draft Agenda 12.30 pm ? Wednesday 17 December 2008 Community Meeting Room Ground Floor, Brisbane Square Library 1. Welcome 2. Attendance/apologies 3. Minutes of previous meeting & action items 4. Announcements/correspondence 5. Reports/updates ? BCC ATU ? (John Lee) including: o Notification of any detours or future detours ? BQ (Andrew Demack) ? Northern Link Environmental Impact Statement (Ian Lister) ? CDB BUG Policy Position for 2009 Qld State Election (Paul French) ? Ideas for CBD BUG submission to Parliamentary Travelsafe Committee Inquiry ?Smart Growth and Transit Oriented Development to Reduce Car Dependency in SEQ? (closes 16 January 2009) (Paul French) ? Boggo Road Bikeway connectivity with Eleanor Schonell Bridge (Donald Campbell) ? CBD BUG 2009 Annual General Meeting - nominations required for Co-convenors 6. Other business 7. Next meeting ? Annual General Meeting Wednesday 28 January 2009 ________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081215/b52a8573/attachment.htm From michael at yeatesit.biz Mon Dec 15 21:12:13 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Mon Dec 15 21:12:34 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail In-Reply-To: <26203.85542.qm@web51002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4946606B.5030106@teegee.com.au> <26203.85542.qm@web51002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081216031216.RSHW631.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Hi all, I was involved in advising re the appeal against the shared footpath beside the golf course ... and one of the conditions in the agreement appeared to be that BCC agreed to install "yellow BIKEs" along Hillside Terrace ... as this has been one of the longest serving on road BIKE ROUTES in Brisbane and it was argued that BCC should NOT be removing on-road BIKE ROUTES and replacing them with shared paths ... otherwise the footpath wars would be inevitable as would be the cyclists v motorists on the adjacent roads ... etc etc ... The problem at present is the one I have argued for (too many) years ... namely build a path, call it a "bikeway" and just wait for motoreists to expect cyclists should ALWAYS use the path ...! So perhaps emails to Cr Jane Prentice at the Walter Taylor Ward office requesting BCC to install the "yellow BIKEs" on Hillside Terrace ??? Or putting it bluntly, use the shared footpath and stop whining ...! MY............... At 12:26 PM 16/12/2008, Anthony Lee wrote: >That is interesting Kim. I was riding outbound from UQ next to the >St. Lucia Golf Course when this guy in a white >car nearly push me off the road! > >Anthony Lee >The Doctor -- the last of the Time Lords? >........-- __o >....-- _ \<,_ >........(_) / (_) >E-Mail: doctorw1963@yahoo.com.au > > > >From: kim >To: BikeQld >Sent: Monday, 15 December, 2008 11:49:31 PM >Subject: Re: [bikeqld] Aussie drivers most ignorant | The Courier-Mail > >Both this piece in the CM and the shared path article in the BT >stirred up the usual contingent of cycle haters. >The CM editors must delight in stirring things up and show no >restraint in the reader comments they publish. Depending on how >early you read the article and any of the comments, some may have >noticed a particularly nasty one posted and published at 7:50am by a >Brett . In his comment he basically said he would continue to knock >down cyclists who got in his way on the road. I spoke to the CM's >online editor and asked why he would publish such threats. He said >he did not think the guy was serious and that he would deliberately >injure a cyclist and that I could write something in defence. I told >him that I had reported it to the police as using an internet >carriage service to make a threat on somebody's life. The posting >was removed instantly but a lot of cyclists had read it and posted >back by then. I did actually report it to the police but they told >me that it 'would be very difficult to find out who posted it' and >that I should take the matter up with the CM myself. I bet though, >if the guy had threatened to blow up a police station they would >have no trouble tracking down the poster. None the less deterred, I >then sent off my gripe with the CM, the poster and the police to the >Police Minister. > >Here's the nob's comment that the CM saw perfectly fit to publish: >> >>I will give way to cyclist's on the road when they start paying >>taxes to use it. (rego / insurance etc etc) . Until then I will >>knock them down when they get in my way . TO all pushbike riders >>you have road rules . Don't abuse - use the bike paths . >>Posted by: Brett of 7:50am today > > >Richard Hockey wrote: >> >>http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24789053-953,00.html >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>bikeqld mailing list >>bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >>http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >>http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >>This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > > >Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. >Enter >now. >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1850 - Release Date: >15/12/2008 5:04 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081216/c4becee7/attachment-0001.htm From adsliif2 at tpg.com.au Tue Dec 16 16:54:48 2008 From: adsliif2 at tpg.com.au (John Nightingale) Date: Tue Dec 16 16:55:03 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] http://www.pushbikeparking.com/green-pod Message-ID: Take a look at this Brisbane designed system. Someone must have known of this before now. I heard of it through Rail Back on Track, who wrote: "Met with Mark Rossiter yesterday (16th Dec). Mark is a principal with Penny Farthings Pushbike Parking. Interesting concepts, suggested he promote direct to QR particularly initial potential on Cleveland and Ferny Grove line. One of their units is being installed at QUT Kelvin Grove shortly. Brief description is a facility for a dozen bikes, lockers, shower and change facilities in the area of one car park space. You can explore further at www.pushbikeparking.com" Cheers, John From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Wed Dec 17 02:24:14 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Wed Dec 17 02:24:25 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] http://www.pushbikeparking.com/green-pod Message-ID: <840747.93754.qm@web44806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I love it! ? Self contained, self cleaning, a reasonable number of bikes and some options for showers vs bike storage. ? I especially like the one pod for 20 bikes fits in 1 car parking bay. The symbolism is fantastic. ? "Dear boss, me and twenty of me friends are going to share a parking space. Can we please have 19/20 of the annual cost of providing a parking bay as a bonus please?' ? Watch out for the Pod People. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081217/6b758231/attachment.htm From doctorw1963 at yahoo.com.au Wed Dec 17 16:51:50 2008 From: doctorw1963 at yahoo.com.au (Anthony Lee) Date: Wed Dec 17 16:52:06 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] http://www.pushbikeparking.com/green-pod References: <840747.93754.qm@web44806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <226760.99528.qm@web51006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The new Energex building (somewhere in Newstead) claims to have bike parking and shower facilities. I wondered how they compare with these ones. Anthony Lee The Doctor -- the last of the Time Lords? ........-- __o ....-- _ \<,_ ........(_) / (_) E-Mail: doctorw1963@yahoo.com.au ________________________________ From: mich rolling To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Sent: Wednesday, 17 December, 2008 6:24:14 PM Subject: [bikeqld] http://www.pushbikeparking.com/green-pod I love it! Self contained, self cleaning, a reasonable number of bikes and some options for showers vs bike storage. I especially like the one pod for 20 bikes fits in 1 car parking bay. The symbolism is fantastic. "Dear boss, me and twenty of me friends are going to share a parking space. Can we please have 19/20 of the annual cost of providing a parking bay as a bonus please?' Watch out for the Pod People. ________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now. Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081217/0e4d4566/attachment.htm From list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net Fri Dec 19 00:37:39 2008 From: list-bikeqld at lister.dnsalias.net (Ian Lister) Date: Fri Dec 19 00:38:03 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge In-Reply-To: <20081210133718.R1933@singha.lister.id.au> References: <120568.90952.qm@web44803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20081210133718.R1933@singha.lister.id.au> Message-ID: <20081219162305.U26363@singha.lister.id.au> Just when you thought this one had been put to rest, the Westside News publishes a story based on the old data: http://westside-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/bicycles-replace-hundreds-of-cars/ =====8<----- Bicycles replace hundreds of cars TOOWONG'S Bicentennial Bikeway is taking hundreds of cars off the road each day, according to new Brisbane City Council figures. Councillor Jane Prentice (Walter Taylor) said council's new 24-hour automated counters recorded an average of 2374 users per week, or 340 a day. The Bicentennial Bikeway links the Regatta Ferry Terminal and the Goodwill Bridge. "There are many more people walking and cycling across the whole of Brisbane's shared bikeways, instead of driving their cars," Cr Prentice said. "Together, they're helping to reduce congestion." She said the average car produced 4.5 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions each year. =====8<----- Nobody wanted to answer their phone but I've dropped them a mail pointing them at the corrected data. They also have a poll "Would more bike paths encourage you to ride a bike more? on their front page: http://westside-news.whereilive.com.au/ Kinda hard to know what to make of any results, given there's no opportunity to say _why_ one would or wouldn't, of course. Ian On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Ian Lister wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Glen Fergus wrote: >> Not sure I get you Mich. The Prentice quote has: >> "The Bicentennial Bikeway recorded an average of 16,618 >> cyclists per week (an average of 2,374 cyclists per day)..." >> >> No obvious week vs day confusion there - maybe the quote >> has since been corrected? > [snip] > > That seems to have been what happened. Yesterday the article started along > the lines of "More than 150 cars trips are taken off the roads every day by > people using..." and today it starts "More than 2200 car trips are taken off > the roads every day by people cycling...". There's been a big correction to > the numbers (by a factor of roughly 14), it's much more clear that it's > talking about cyclists and not peds today, and the talk of "return trips" has > been replaced by just "trips". > > I wonder what it will say tomorrow. > > Cheers, > > Ian > From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Sun Dec 21 00:32:32 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Sun Dec 21 00:32:47 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge Message-ID: <193868.2257.qm@web44809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> At least the Westside News is covering some of the details. Information on the Morrisey bridge over Ipswich Road, the PA-StLucia diversionary link and the Toowong overpass are pretty? much missing from the Main Roads/Translink/Transport dpt websites. Overpass blow out http://westside-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/overpass-blow-out/ 17 Dec 08 @ 08:13am THE Toowong Pedestrian and Cycle Overpass is running two months late and at more than twice its initial multi-million dollar budget. Sharp rises in construction costs have been blamed for the blow out of the project, which was supposed to be finished this month at a cost of $4 million. It is now scheduled for completion in February for $10 million. Transport Minister John Mickel said weather interruptions and difficulties in sourcing materials had pushed back the construction schedule. He said construction was well under way and the crossing would make cycling safer. ?The overpass provides access separated from the busy Western Freeway to make it safer and easier for people, whether they are cycling or walking, to access local facilities such as Mt Coot-tha Botanic Gardens and other recreational areas,? Mr Mickel said. ?It will also provide a direct link via the Bicentennial Bikeway to the CBD for commuter cyclists.? He said since the overpass was announced in 2006 the project had increased in scope to include enhanced and more extensive approach paths to the north and south. ?We have also seen sharp rises in construction costs that have been felt across the entire sector. The project is now expected to cost $10 million,? Mr Mickel said. The project includes 160m of elevated structure, 325m of new path linking to the Western Freeway Bikeway (east), 425m of new path linking to Mt Coot-tha Rd (west), and a 60m steel structure crossing the Western Freeway.? Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081220/2801108d/attachment.htm From kim at teegee.com.au Mon Dec 22 07:10:37 2008 From: kim at teegee.com.au (kim) Date: Mon Dec 22 17:14:30 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Towong Overbudget Overpass [was: Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge] In-Reply-To: <193868.2257.qm@web44809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <193868.2257.qm@web44809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <494F91CD.6070008@teegee.com.au> I thought that it came together relatively quickly once they got started (probably as it did not involve a lot of interruption to the freeway traffic). I like how Mickel says that it will provide a connection onto the Bicentennial bikeway to the city and yet there is no sign of any improvement to the connection to this route let alone any improvement with the BB yet apart from BCC's effort to put a few LED lights along the bendy section in Anzac Pk and a splash of green at the intersection on Sylvan Rd outbound near the rail overpass. The passage thru the bus depot old park and ride is still very dodgy as is the crossing of Miskin St, the Subaru dealership is using the path more and more for their cars, the connection onto Sylvan Rd both in and outbound is crappy, the ride along Sylvan is an obstacle course of car doors and uneven pavement, sightlines for cars at the intersection near the new green paint is still crap due to an extended kerbside parking which necessitates that cars have to stop out in the bikelane to see what's coming, many of the bike symbols are destroyed or obscured and most don't reflect at night, the are no storage bays at the Jephson St / Sylvan Rd intersection, the crossing of Land St outbound is woeful and then you get to the BB. k mich rolling wrote: > > > At least the Westside News is covering some of the details. > > Information on the Morrisey bridge over Ipswich Road, the PA-StLucia > diversionary link and the Toowong overpass are pretty much missing > from the Main Roads/Translink/Transport dpt websites. > > > Overpass blow out > > /http://westside-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/overpass-blow-out// > > /17 Dec 08 @ 08:13am/ > > THE Toowong Pedestrian and Cycle Overpass is running two months late > and at more than twice its initial multi-million dollar budget. > Sharp rises in construction costs have been blamed for the blow out of > the project, which was supposed to be finished this month at a cost of > $4 million. > It is now scheduled for completion in February for $10 million. > Transport Minister John Mickel said weather interruptions and > difficulties in sourcing materials had pushed back the construction > schedule. He said construction was well under way and the crossing > would make cycling safer. > ?The overpass provides access separated from the busy Western Freeway > to make it safer and easier for people, whether they are cycling or > walking, to access local facilities such as Mt Coot-tha Botanic > Gardens and other recreational areas,? Mr Mickel said. > ?It will also provide a direct link via the Bicentennial Bikeway to > the CBD for commuter cyclists.? > He said since the overpass was announced in 2006 the project had > increased in scope to include enhanced and more extensive approach > paths to the north and south. > ?We have also seen sharp rises in construction costs that have been > felt across the entire sector. The project is now expected to cost $10 > million,? Mr Mickel said. > The project includes 160m of elevated structure,_ 325m of new path > linking to _the Western Freeway Bikeway (east), 425m of new path > linking to Mt Coot-tha Rd (west), and a 60m steel structure crossing > the Western Freeway. _ _ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. > Take a look > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > bikeqld mailing list > bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. From michael at yeatesit.biz Mon Dec 22 18:02:15 2008 From: michael at yeatesit.biz (Michael Yeates) Date: Mon Dec 22 18:02:34 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Towong Overbudget Overpass [was: Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge] In-Reply-To: <494F91CD.6070008@teegee.com.au> References: <193868.2257.qm@web44809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <494F91CD.6070008@teegee.com.au> Message-ID: <20081223000213.QALE23376.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Hi Kim and others... Amazing how the dollars (esp EXTRA dollars and the more so when more than DOUBLING the price/cost) attracts attention ... rather more than quality or utility etc ... Lets face it, from a "useful" cycling perspective, how many cyclists and peds are going to use it instead of a car .. or bus ... and what is the CB ratio then ? It is a bit cute to imply it is a key part of the commuting network ... ie yet another location where motorists won't see cyclists using it ... and will likely whinge accordingly. And it is worth noting for the record that it started off as a request for a safe crossing to get to and from Toowong State School across Milton Road other than by car (or walking to the Croydon Street lights) ... and by way of support from Andrew Fraser, it seems to have morphed (or changed like a chameleon) in almost every aspect ... but planning is like that in Queensland as Andrew clearly learned while the Minister for "planning" etc etc. So perhaps it is yet another symbolic gesture so motorists can ignore the ever-complaining cyclists and the politicians can bask in the glory of sycophantic praise from those who think it is money well spent. It is obviously very useful for those for whom it is useful. But it is not at all clear the Gardens wants people cycling through the Gardens. Equally, previous attempts to encourage the Gardens to provide bike parking that is appropriately secure has not been welcomed at all. MY............................... At 11:10 PM 22/12/2008, kim wrote: >I thought that it came together relatively >quickly once they got started (probably as it >did not involve a lot of interruption to the >freeway traffic). I like how Mickel says that it >will provide a connection onto the Bicentennial >bikeway to the city and yet there is no sign of >any improvement to the connection to this route >let alone any improvement with the BB yet apart >from BCC's effort to put a few LED lights along >the bendy section in Anzac Pk and a splash of >green at the intersection on Sylvan Rd outbound >near the rail overpass. The passage thru the bus >depot old park and ride is still very dodgy as >is the crossing of Miskin St, the Subaru >dealership is using the path more and more for >their cars, the connection onto Sylvan Rd both >in and outbound is crappy, the ride along Sylvan >is an obstacle course of car doors and uneven >pavement, sightlines for cars at the >intersection near the new green paint is still >crap due to an extended kerbside parking which >necessitates that cars have to stop out in the >bikelane to see what's coming, many of the bike >symbols are destroyed or obscured and most don't >reflect at night, the are no storage bays at the >Jephson St / Sylvan Rd intersection, the >crossing of Land St outbound is woeful and then you get to the BB. > >k > > > >mich rolling wrote: >> >> >> At least the Westside News is covering some of the details. >> >>Information on the Morrisey bridge over Ipswich >>Road, the PA-StLucia diversionary link and the >>Toowong overpass are pretty much missing from >>the Main Roads/Translink/Transport dpt websites. >> >> >> Overpass blow out >> >>/http://westside-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/overpass-blow-out// >> >>/17 Dec 08 @ 08:13am/ >> >>THE Toowong Pedestrian and Cycle Overpass is >>running two months late and at more than twice >>its initial multi-million dollar budget. >>Sharp rises in construction costs have been >>blamed for the blow out of the project, which >>was supposed to be finished this month at a cost of $4 million. >>It is now scheduled for completion in February for $10 million. >>Transport Minister John Mickel said weather >>interruptions and difficulties in sourcing >>materials had pushed back the construction >>schedule. He said construction was well under >>way and the crossing would make cycling safer. >>???The overpass provides access separated from >>the busy Western Freeway to make it safer and >>easier for people, whether they are cycling or >>walking, to access local facilities such as Mt >>Coot-tha Botanic Gardens and other recreational areas,??? Mr Mickel said. >>???It will also provide a direct link via the >>Bicentennial Bikeway to the CBD for commuter cyclists.??? >>He said since the overpass was announced in >>2006 the project had increased in scope to >>include enhanced and more extensive approach paths to the north and south. >>???We have also seen sharp rises in >>construction costs that have been felt across >>the entire sector. The project is now expected >>to cost $10 million,??? Mr Mickel said. >>The project includes 160m of elevated >>structure,_ 325m of new path linking to _the >>Western Freeway Bikeway (east), 425m of new >>path linking to Mt Coot-tha Rd (west), and a >>60m steel structure crossing the Western Freeway. _ _ >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Stay connected to the people that matter most >>with a smarter inbox. Take a look >>. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>bikeqld mailing list >>bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >>http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >>http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >>This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > >_______________________________________________ >bikeqld mailing list >bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 >- Release Date: 22/12/2008 11:23 AM From kim at teegee.com.au Mon Dec 22 08:53:20 2008 From: kim at teegee.com.au (kim) Date: Mon Dec 22 18:57:15 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Towong Overbudget Overpass [was: Bikes on Eleanor Schonell Bridge] In-Reply-To: <20081223000213.QALE23376.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> References: <193868.2257.qm@web44809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <494F91CD.6070008@teegee.com.au> <20081223000213.QALE23376.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@yit01.yeatesit.biz> Message-ID: <494FA9E0.9040101@teegee.com.au> Hi Michael, Quite true about the Gardens and bikes too. Last time I was there on my bike to get a plant book from their botanical library, I had to lock my bike to some native species. I got my book and came out noticing that there was a native plant show on. I rode up there for a look and decided to go in for a look around. I saw lots of cars parked out the back of the building and thought this might be a bit more secure. When I rode in there to see where I could leave my bike I got scolded by a little old lady who said bikes were not allowed in the gardens. I tried ever so politely to explain that all I wanted to do was park my bike in a safe place to visit the show and plant sales but ended up just riding off feeling unwanted and despondent. Might be just as well as I might have come away with half a dozen native plants they were selling stuffed in my pannier. I wonder too about the accuracy of the bicycle 'spends' these days with money a bit tighter, perhaps its a creative way of reaching your budget expenditure without spending so much. I am sure BCC will be extra creative in reaching their $100M spend for cycling without really spending that much on cycle infrastructure. Still even at $10M its a bargain in comparison with the Normanby Bicycle Link underpass which basically takes you nowhere except around the back of the schools when there was an existing little used road route right through the gardens from Roma St station to a traffic light controlled intersection which would do exactly the same or better. BQ absolutely praised that spend. I noticed that BQ were also praising the spends in the suburban parks and defending these as much needed routes in the Letters to the Editor of the Westside News recently. I think it was in response to some criticism of these park tracks not actually connecting anywhere by one of us westside pedallers, I actually thought it may have been you or Anthony but I had recycled that issue without reading it as it became paper mache with the rain. Did anyone read the original letter? kim Michael Yeates wrote: > Hi Kim and others... > > Amazing how the dollars (esp EXTRA dollars and the more so when more > than DOUBLING the price/cost) attracts attention ... rather more than > quality or utility etc ... > > Lets face it, from a "useful" cycling perspective, how many cyclists > and peds are going to use it instead of a car .. or bus ... and what > is the CB ratio then ? > > It is a bit cute to imply it is a key part of the commuting network > ... ie yet another location where motorists won't see cyclists using > it ... and will likely whinge accordingly. > > And it is worth noting for the record that it started off as a request > for a safe crossing to get to and from Toowong State School across > Milton Road other than by car (or walking to the Croydon Street > lights) ... and by way of support from Andrew Fraser, it seems to have > morphed (or changed like a chameleon) in almost every aspect ... but > planning is like that in Queensland as Andrew clearly learned while > the Minister for "planning" etc etc. > > So perhaps it is yet another symbolic gesture so motorists can ignore > the ever-complaining cyclists and the politicians can bask in the > glory of sycophantic praise from those who think it is money well spent. > > It is obviously very useful for those for whom it is useful. But it is > not at all clear the Gardens wants people cycling through the Gardens. > > Equally, previous attempts to encourage the Gardens to provide bike > parking that is appropriately secure has not been welcomed at all. > > MY............................... > > At 11:10 PM 22/12/2008, kim wrote: > >> I thought that it came together relatively quickly once they got >> started (probably as it did not involve a lot of interruption to the >> freeway traffic). I like how Mickel says that it will provide a >> connection onto the Bicentennial bikeway to the city and yet there is >> no sign of any improvement to the connection to this route let alone >> any improvement with the BB yet apart from BCC's effort to put a few >> LED lights along the bendy section in Anzac Pk and a splash of green >> at the intersection on Sylvan Rd outbound near the rail overpass. The >> passage thru the bus depot old park and ride is still very dodgy as >> is the crossing of Miskin St, the Subaru dealership is using the path >> more and more for their cars, the connection onto Sylvan Rd both in >> and outbound is crappy, the ride along Sylvan is an obstacle course >> of car doors and uneven pavement, sightlines for cars at the >> intersection near the new green paint is still crap due to an >> extended kerbside parking which necessitates that cars have to stop >> out in the bikelane to see what's coming, many of the bike symbols >> are destroyed or obscured and most don't reflect at night, the are no >> storage bays at the Jephson St / Sylvan Rd intersection, the crossing >> of Land St outbound is woeful and then you get to the BB. >> >> k >> >> >> >> mich rolling wrote: >>> >>> >>> At least the Westside News is covering some of the details. >>> >>> Information on the Morrisey bridge over Ipswich Road, the PA-StLucia >>> diversionary link and the Toowong overpass are pretty much missing >>> from the Main Roads/Translink/Transport dpt websites. >>> >>> >>> Overpass blow out >>> >>> /http://westside-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/overpass-blow-out// >>> >>> /17 Dec 08 @ 08:13am/ >>> >>> THE Toowong Pedestrian and Cycle Overpass is running two months late >>> and at more than twice its initial multi-million dollar budget. >>> Sharp rises in construction costs have been blamed for the blow out >>> of the project, which was supposed to be finished this month at a >>> cost of $4 million. >>> It is now scheduled for completion in February for $10 million. >>> Transport Minister John Mickel said weather interruptions and >>> difficulties in sourcing materials had pushed back the construction >>> schedule. He said construction was well under way and the crossing >>> would make cycling safer. >>> “The overpass provides access separated from the busy Western >>> Freeway to make it safer and easier for people, whether they are >>> cycling or walking, to access local facilities such as Mt Coot-tha >>> Botanic Gardens and other recreational areas,” Mr Mickel said. >>> “It will also provide a direct link via the Bicentennial Bikeway >>> to the CBD for commuter cyclists.” >>> He said since the overpass was announced in 2006 the project had >>> increased in scope to include enhanced and more extensive approach >>> paths to the north and south. >>> “We have also seen sharp rises in construction costs that have >>> been felt across the entire sector. The project is now expected to >>> cost $10 million,” Mr Mickel said. >>> The project includes 160m of elevated structure,_ 325m of new path >>> linking to _the Western Freeway Bikeway (east), 425m of new path >>> linking to Mt Coot-tha Rd (west), and a 60m steel structure crossing >>> the Western Freeway. _ _ >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. >>> Take a look >>> . >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bikeqld mailing list >>> bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >>> http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >>> http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >>> This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bikeqld mailing list >> bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au >> http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ >> http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld >> This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 - Release Date: >> 22/12/2008 11:23 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > bikeqld mailing list > bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. > From xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au Tue Dec 23 04:49:35 2008 From: xdollarfuel at yahoo.com.au (mich rolling) Date: Tue Dec 23 04:49:46 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] How Brisbane City belittles its own cycling strategies Message-ID: <749416.8252.qm@web44811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> http://cbdbug.googlepages.com/NorthernLinkEISsubmission.pdf ? Thankyou to the CBDBug and?Paul French in particular for putting together this detailed analysis of how the EXISTING Brisbane City Council and Qld state cycling plans and strategies are being overlooked/ignored/not seriously entertained by planners of the Northern Link tunnel. ? An interesting comment in the Boggo Road - PA Hospital cycleway newsletter is that building the cycle link from Dutton Park railway station past the new PA bus station to O'Keefe St (nearly said to the M1 cycleway but it does not actually link up) is best done contempraneously with the busway TO AVOID ADDITIONAL COSTS if it is built later. ? Similar comments can be made about building proper ped/cycle provision into the NorthernLink tunnel project. Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081223/d12cab48/attachment.htm From gsfergus at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 23 18:32:01 2008 From: gsfergus at optusnet.com.au (Glen Fergus) Date: Tue Dec 23 18:32:11 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] How Brisbane City belittles its own cycling strategies In-Reply-To: <749416.8252.qm@web44811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <749416.8252.qm@web44811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <428BD987DD1542F9B5D083A2B083912D@golder.gds> Thanks Mich. A really fine effort, which deserves to be more widely disseminated. G. _____ From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of mich rolling Sent: Tuesday, 23 December 2008 8:50 PM To: bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au Subject: [bikeqld] How Brisbane City belittles its own cycling strategies http://cbdbug.googlepages.com/NorthernLinkEISsubmission.pdf Thankyou to the CBDBug and Paul French in particular for putting together this detailed analysis of how the EXISTING Brisbane City Council and Qld state cycling plans and strategies are being overlooked/ignored/not seriously entertained by planners of the Northern Link tunnel. An interesting comment in the Boggo Road - PA Hospital cycleway newsletter is that building the cycle link from Dutton Park railway station past the new PA bus station to O'Keefe St (nearly said to the M1 cycleway but it does not actually link up) is best done contempraneously with the busway TO AVOID ADDITIONAL COSTS if it is built later. Similar comments can be made about building proper ped/cycle provision into the NorthernLink tunnel project. _____ Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bikeqld.org.au/pipermail/bikeqld/attachments/20081224/32393d0a/attachment.htm From busrail at fastmail.fm Tue Dec 23 18:51:00 2008 From: busrail at fastmail.fm (Norm Morwood) Date: Tue Dec 23 18:51:42 2008 Subject: [bikeqld] Towong Overbudget Overpass [was: Bikes on EleanorSchonell Bridge] In-Reply-To: <494F91CD.6070008@teegee.com.au> Message-ID: <000001c96561$b9e5ad80$0201010a@Betty> Good description of the main problems with the connection to the fabulous Bicentennial Bikeway to the city from the west Kim. Thanks. A bit depressing really since it seems not to have changed at all since I last rode there 18 months ago. Oops I don't remember the "splash of green". That must be a big help. Another reason to be happy to be now living in the sunshine hinterland although our onroad facilities are worse than much of what you describe. Regards, Norm. 07 5442 2916, 0409 63 99 44 140 Blackall Range Rd Woombye Qld 4559 Disclaimer: Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive, anyway. http://256.com/gray/quotes/misc.html -----Original Message----- From: bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au [mailto:bikeqld-bounces@bikeqld.org.au] On Behalf Of kim Sent: Monday, 22 December 2008 11:11 PM To: BikeQld Subject: Re: [bikeqld] Towong Overbudget Overpass [was: Bikes on EleanorSchonell Bridge] I thought that it came together relatively quickly once they got started (probably as it did not involve a lot of interruption to the freeway traffic). I like how Mickel says that it will provide a connection onto the Bicentennial bikeway to the city and yet there is no sign of any improvement to the connection to this route let alone any improvement with the BB yet apart from BCC's effort to put a few LED lights along the bendy section in Anzac Pk and a splash of green at the intersection on Sylvan Rd outbound near the rail overpass. The passage thru the bus depot old park and ride is still very dodgy as is the crossing of Miskin St, the Subaru dealership is using the path more and more for their cars, the connection onto Sylvan Rd both in and outbound is crappy, the ride along Sylvan is an obstacle course of car doors and uneven pavement, sightlines for cars at the intersection near the new green paint is still crap due to an extended kerbside parking which necessitates that cars have to stop out in the bikelane to see what's coming, many of the bike symbols are destroyed or obscured and most don't reflect at night, the are no storage bays at the Jephson St / Sylvan Rd intersection, the crossing of Land St outbound is woeful and then you get to the BB. k mich rolling wrote: > > > At least the Westside News is covering some of the details. > > Information on the Morrisey bridge over Ipswich Road, the PA-StLucia > diversionary link and the Toowong overpass are pretty much missing > from the Main Roads/Translink/Transport dpt websites. > > > Overpass blow out > > /http://westside-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/overpass-blow-out// > > /17 Dec 08 @ 08:13am/ > > THE Toowong Pedestrian and Cycle Overpass is running two months late > and at more than twice its initial multi-million dollar budget. > Sharp rises in construction costs have been blamed for the blow out of > the project, which was supposed to be finished this month at a cost of > $4 million. > It is now scheduled for completion in February for $10 million. > Transport Minister John Mickel said weather interruptions and > difficulties in sourcing materials had pushed back the construction > schedule. He said construction was well under way and the crossing > would make cycling safer. > "The overpass provides access separated from the busy Western Freeway > to make it safer and easier for people, whether they are cycling or > walking, to access local facilities such as Mt Coot-tha Botanic > Gardens and other recreational areas," Mr Mickel said. > "It will also provide a direct link via the Bicentennial Bikeway to > the CBD for commuter cyclists." > He said since the overpass was announced in 2006 the project had > increased in scope to include enhanced and more extensive approach > paths to the north and south. > "We have also seen sharp rises in construction costs that have been > felt across the entire sector. The project is now expected to cost $10 > million," Mr Mickel said. > The project includes 160m of elevated structure,_ 325m of new path > linking to _the Western Freeway Bikeway (east), 425m of new path > linking to Mt Coot-tha Rd (west), and a 60m steel structure crossing > the Western Freeway. _ _ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. > Take a look > . > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > _______________________________________________ > bikeqld mailing list > bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ > http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld > This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland. _______________________________________________ bikeqld mailing list bikeqld@bikeqld.org.au http://www.bikeqld.org.au/ http://www.bikeqld.org.au/mailman/listinfo/bikeqld This list has NO affiliation with Bicycle Queensland.